The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each person’s concern. – Sanford Police Department Report, page 27 (verbatim)
IF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN had not decided to enter the situation, but instead let the professionals do their jobs, perhaps one teen wouldn’t have been shot dead, and a man wouldn’t have ruined his life. Because no matter the outcome, Zimmerman’s life will never be what it might have been.
The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman… if Zimmerman had… or conversely if [Zimmerman] had… ..
The Sanford Police Report puts the blame squarely on the decisions made by George Zimmerman on the night he fatally shot Trayvon Martin dead.
It is quite a document dump by the prosecution.
“Investigation reveals that Martin was in fact running generally in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood.”
The autopsy by the Volusia County Medical Examiner on Trayvon Martin showed traces of THC, tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana.
Many things can be said about marijuana, but I’ve never known anyone, seen anyone or personally experienced, pot inducing aggression; sleepiness, perhaps, craving all sorts of snacks, absolutely, but aggressive behavior, no. Of course, that won’t stop the squealing.
The report tells a story that is at times confusing to read and devastating at others.
One investigator wrote:
“… I was also informed that statements made by Zimmerman at the scene were corroborated by several witnesses, and led to the possibility of this shooting having been self defense. Written statements were obtained by…”
One person interviewed recalled “the black male was mounted on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style’…” The person goes on to say “a guy… on the bottom getting hit was yelling help…”
A few pages later:
“… I reviewed the 911 calls… [redacted] [redacted] in the background I could clearly hear a male’s voice either yelling “Help” or “Help me”, fourteen (14) times in an approximately 38 second time span. The voice was determined to be that of George Zimmerman, who was apparently yelling for help as he was being battered by Trayvon Martin.”
One anonymous call by a female who refused to give any identifying information told an Inv. Perkins that “George Zimmerman has racist ideologies, and that he is perfectly capable of instigating a confrontation that could have escalated to the point of Zimmerman having to use deadly force.” This means nothing, because it’s anonymous and could be anyone, including someone with a grudge against Zimmerman.
One woman saw “two men chasing each other, a fistfight between the two men..” then she heard the gunshot.
In one telephonic interview one person was “adamant that there was no physical fighting at the time when the gunshot rang out.”
One woman interviewed said she “heard someone crying” before the gunshot rang out. “When asked to best describe the crying or the sobbing she heard, she stated it was coming from a young person, and the tone was that of fear, and/or complaining.”
In another part of the report:
“I asked Mr. Martin if the voice calling for help was that of his son. Mr. Martin, clearly emotionally impacted by the recording, quietly responded, ‘no.’”
According to reports, including the New York Times, not only was Zimmerman’s vehicle not impounded on the night of the shooting, but the Sanford police didn’t cover the crime scene, so blood evidence could not be recovered.
Some time prior to the fatal shooting George Zimmerman had been prescribed both Temazepam, which is prescribed for anxiety and insomnia, as well as Aderall, but we’ll never know what was in his system the night he decided to do the job better left to professionals.
¶ The police did not test Mr. Zimmerman for alcohol or drug use that night, and one witness said the lead investigator quickly jumped to a conclusion that it was Mr. Zimmerman, and not Mr. Martin, who cried for help during the struggle. [New York Times]
Or just read Jeralyn:
I highly recommend that everyone hop over and read through the discussion there. It is nice to see the case examined without the mention of race.
But not nearly as titillating. They prefer it here. It’s just plain easier to call someone a racist.
Only when they talk the talk RR, only when they talk the talk.
A first-line defense of a weak mind.
Was the situation “perhaps” avoidable or “Ultimatetly” avoidable? I am confused on the message in the beggining.
It looks like the facts are coming out. The picture being painted now, based on the evidence of what really happened, is far far different than the picture that was origionally fabricated when the story first broke.
Rick Roberts, I suspect you feel that Zimmerman is complety innocent. Do you feel the police department handled this case properly? It looks like proper procedures were not followed and this concerns me. I understand that lawyers have a habit of nit-picking every single thing the police do in a case as part of establishing a good defense. I want to know how bad did the police really botch this case and if they did not follow proper procedure, why. I think the police testimony will answer many questions as to why Zimmerman was not arrested, drug tested, and allowed to have the firearm back that killed Martin. There are many aspects of the police handling of this case that concern me. I do not think that Zimmerman is guilty of murder.
At the scene, no. Subsequently, yes. And they were not allowed to finish. The Times has a running piece.
mj
The Media did not fabricate anything, that is a poor word choice. The case was ans it is murky. The facts are missing, confused and contradictory. With a rush to “break first” which is part and parcel of the 24 hour news cycle some parts of the story get broken when the story breaks.
Now the prosecution is releasing some information that was not available in the first days of the incident. You are finally seeing real information, admittedly spun, that is the result of careful investigation, not confused first hand accounts.
This is how most news and journalism works. The self-imposed time pressures of the Moron Media makes for muddled journalism at best. Sometimes the press just gets it wrong because they put too much confidence in a source or bought too much into a narrative.
A news narrative can really screw up conscientious reporting.And when that narrative does not fit the facts at hand, or the reader’s preconceived notions; chaos ensues.
But the Media loves, loves, loves a narrative to hang a story on, they love to frame a story on old tired nostrums. It’s not fabrication, but sometimes it’s even worse than fabrication. At least a fabricator knows s/he is not being truthful. A Media outlet that hangs a story on narrative often thinks it’s delivering a greater truth. Much more delusional. Much more dangerous.
I see RR is the first one here to come to the defense of Mr. Zimmerman which isn’t surprising considering his apparent dislike for young black teenagers. I wonder Rick, do you follow and get out of your car every time you see a young black kid walking around were you live? Is the first thing you think of, is he must be up to no good? I bet like most sane people you just go about your business and not feel the urge to play cop and follow said black kid who is just walking down the sidewalk minding his own business.
Zimmerman caused this tragic event by playing cop when he decided to follow this kid, who was minding his own business and just walking home from the store. What made Zimmerman think he had the right to play cop and infringe on the rights of Martin to be able to walk in peace to the store and back? Zimmerman who was armed and a adult should have acted like an adult, and if he thought something wasn’t right, should have called the police instead of playing cops and robbers.
Angels, good morning, and damn straight I am quick to defend George Zimmerman, and I will continue to do so whenever and wherever I get an opportunity. There are real cases of injustice where we could be focussing attention. This case was not one until George was improperly railroaded by a vicious mob.
As you say, no, I am not in the least suspicious of every black male in my neighborhood, and there are plenty of them here, but if I were a neighborhood watchmen, late at night, in the rain, with a history of break-ins by young black men, and then I saw one ambling about acting like he’s on drugs or something, then I am pretty certain my antennae would go up. Yours would too.
No. Wrong. Trayvon caused his own death when he broke the laws of civilized society by physically assaulting another human being.
Name me one civil right that was infringed. Name one.
Zimmerman did exactly what he was supposed to do. The dispatcher told him to observe the young man and to let them know if anything changed. Listen to the call again.
The narrative is slowly falling apart. Its creators are ass-covering with a fury, but they can’t do it all at once. They would look like the one-sided race hustlers they are.
Zimmerman shot and killed Martin which in my mind is a infringement of the kids civil rights. I ask you again… What right did Mr. Zimmerman have to confront this kid who was just walking down the street from the store? Zimmerman wasn’t a cop? To say Zimmerman was on some neighborhood watch is pure bullshit. Zimmerman did everything neighborhood watch people are told not to do. One is you don’t carry a gun and two, you do not follow or confront said person, you call the cops and let them do what the are trained to do when they get said call. Zimmerman was in the wrong, and a young kid paid the price for Zimmerman acting like Rambo.
Following is not a crime. Confronting is not a crime. Physically assaulting another human being is a crime. Shooting the person who is assaulting you because you fear serious bodily injury or death is not a crime.
The only person who committed a crime that night was Trayvon Martin, and he paid a terrible price for it.
“There are real cases of injustice where we could be focussing attention. This case was not one until George was improperly railroaded by a vicious mob.”
Just think about the mind set that is comfortable referring to the murder of a young Black male as not a REAL case of injustice!!!!!!!!
WELL HE WAS BLACK, so no REAL injustice here!
Staggering, truly staggering.
Oh, it’s a murder already, is it? Did I miss the trial?
Sec, don’t you believe in and support the bedrock American principal of innocent until proven guilty when someone is accused of a crime?
WORD, angels81.
This will remain true long after the jury renders verdict.
Zimmerman called the police to report a suspicious character. There had been break-ins in the neighborhood. Zimmerman did his level best to keep himself aware of the kid’s whereabouts because thieves had gotten away before; this is not a crime. He defended himself when the aggrieved young punk assaulted him. Is it that hard for you all to understand that?
I see you failed to mention that the thieves who had done the break-ins had been arrested according to the police long before Mr. Zimmerman decided to play cops and robbers.
And others had gotten away.
“He defended himself when the aggrieved young punk assaulted him. Is it that hard for you all to understand that?”
So, a completely innocent kid who is stalked by an adult decides to defend himself and gets killed by said adult and the kid is an “aggrieved young punk”?
Staggering, truly, truly staggering.
Let me ask you this, Sec. Since Zimmerman was the only one with injuries, what was Martin defending against? Hmm?
Confronting does not equal assault.
Use your widdle noggin.
By the way, Sec, of the myriad responses to the question what are you doing here, which one includes sitting on the questioner’s chest and beating his face and head?
Oh, now I see! We are already preparing yet another narrative for when the inevitable happens and Zimmerman is vindicated. And I will add, too, that it will be a righteous vindication.
Spin, spin, spin, for some egos are too big to ever admit a mistake.
ego……
Correct, Whitepaw. A single ego. Sad. She used to be such an honest, brutal broker, which is why I loved her.
The only ego I see here are RR’s and Whitepaws.
And if you don’t like Taylor’s reporting, then pray tell, why the hell are you here?
To keep her honest?
Man RR, that is one over-inflated sense of self you got there.
Getting out of your car is not a crime, but any law enforcement officer will tell you it is very stupid in a situation such as this. Neighborhood Watch, means exactly that. Watch report, and stay in a safe place, your home or car, and leave the action to the professionals.
George Zimmerman may not be guilty of Second Degree murder but he is guilty of monumental stupidity and because of that, a young man is dead.
I just have to laugh as you all slowly unwind the ridiculous narrative you have had in your small minds. It is a beautiful thing to behold. Keep it coming, please.
I have always thought he (Zimmerman) used poor judgment by leaving his car at all… However, the non-emergency police tape that has been played repeatedly seems to indicate that Zimmerman was already out of his car before the police dispatcher stated that Zimmerman did not need to follow him, and when Zimmerman said OK, his breathing pattern changed, indicating he had stopped running and instead started walking.
There is some debate about a timeline and how Martin had ample time to return to the townhouse he was visiting while Zimmerman remained on the phone with the dispatcher, seeking a cross street to identify his position.. but if there is any truth to this, then the defense will likely bring it up at trial.
We just really do not know who confronted whom and who started the altercation at this point. Zimmerman may have used poor judgment leaving his car, but that is not against the law.
I also find it odd that the policeman who wrote the part in the report about how this could have ultimately been avoided, was essentially stating his opinion on the matter. Perhaps opinions are standard in police reports. But it is also the one thing in the evidence that those who have already judged Zimmerman as guilty are latching onto.
No,
What most are responding to here is multiple arguments that Zimmerman was justified in his actions. I can only speak for my self and continue to argue that Zimmerman was liable for the death of unarmed BLACK teen. I emphasize the race of the teen because there is enough data out there to see race was big chuck of why this went down the way it went down. I still doubt there is enough for Federal Criminal Charges because that it a really high bar of proof.
Zimmerman actions were not defensible, not under any type of rational thinking process. Not under any kind fearless self inventory by Zimmerman. He was a neighborhood watch, he was acting like freaking Batman. He had neither the training nor the physical prowess to take on a young black teen. His muddled mind wrote a check that his body was unable to cash.
The central point revolves around that altercation, an altercation that Zimmerman’s reckless and foolish actions got him into–for no good god-damn reason.
I will go even further, even with the new “evidence” of Zimmerman’s injuries I still see no good reason for Zimmerman to use deadly force. His pride may have been deeply injured, he might have been in a deep panic, he might even have been experiencing what he thought was significant pain but his life was not in any real danger.
I personally see a good argument for negligent homicide, but I am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. I can also see an argument for diminished mental capacity. Argue good enough, and give me supporting evidence, and I can even see not guilty due to diminished mental capacity. But totally innocent? No, not on your life Whitepaw. Zimmerman was incompetent of his duties, and grossly negligent. The only real argument is whether he was criminally responsible, whether he should go to prison for his actions.
Believe it or else I’m not there; yet. I need to know where is metal state was at. What others are seeing as racial animus, I am seeing as Low Functioning ADHD. I’m seeing a man hard-wired in such a way that he has poor impulse control. And I am seeing this as a very serious problem for Zimmerman. Ego the drugs he was on, and the actions he took.
Others have noted that it looked like Zimmerman was hunting Martin. It may be very well so, but not because of racial profiling or animus, but because Zimmerman is hard-wired to be a hunter. Twenty thousand years ago, when the ice age was in full bloom, it would be handy to have someone like Zimmerman on your Wooly Monmouth hunt. Today, not so much. Not much use for men hard-wired to be Wooly Monmouth hunters, or any other kind of hunter, these days.
Mark Furhman (of the OJ trial fame) surprisingly came out against Zimmerman on Fox News. He said that Zimmerman should never have gotten out of his and followed Martin. Armed community watch volunteers who leave their car and follow anyone they suspect is a recipe for murder.
In my opinion if Trayvon Martin was a white boy, Zimmerman would never have left his car or even reported his comments to the police dispatcher.
Fortunately for us, your opinion is irrelevant. The law will suffice.
Rick, what others would that be? I don’t know were you live, but in any urban area there is crime and that is why we have police and courts of law. If Mr. Zimmerman had acted like any sane adult he would have let the police deal with whatever concerns he had about Martin, instead of acting on his own and trying to be a cop.
Others detailed in the Reuters profile of Zimmerman.
Rick, I don’t know were you grew up? I grew up on the streets Oakland and I’ll tell you, if someone I didn’t know was following me and got out of his car to confront me I would have turned and confronted him back, and he may have ended up with a smashed face for sticking his nose in were it didn’t belong. Zimmerman was in the WRONG and this young boy is DEAD because Zimmerman thought he was judge and jury over the action of this young kid which for some ungodly reason Zimmerman felt being young, black, and just walking down the street was reason to follow him and confront him.
And you would would have committed a serious crime, Angels. In civilized society, we do not physically assault other human beings, and this gets to the very root of the problem of violence in black culture: the failure or inability to learn and obey the rules and mores of civilized society. Until black America gets this right, they will forever be behind.
You just don’t get it do ya? People have a right in this country to be able to walk down the street and be left alone as long as they are not breaking any law. You do not have the right to confront me, question me to what I am doing or think you have the right to act for the police. Where did Mr. Zimmerman get the right to invade Martins personal space as he was breaking no laws and was just walking down the street from the store? What business was it of Mr. Zimmerman to follow someone who was breaking no laws? What business was it of Mr. Zimmerman to go to the lengths of getting out of his car to follow this kid?
“Until black America gets this right, they will forever be behind.”
It’s them darkies fault Angels, they just can’t learn to act white an stuff.
Well, whose fault is it?
If act white an stuff means lower infant mortality, lower crime rate, higher high school and college graduation rates, lower HIV infection rate, lower poverty rate, lower teen pregnancy rate, fewer out-of-wedlock births, lower unemployment rate, then sure. OK. I’ll take that.
What a racist statement you just made Rick. The problem is that this country is a violent country, and it has little to do with what the color of your skin is. For you to continue to single out blacks as more violent then all the good white people in this country is bullshit, and you should know that. We are a violent country and always have been, and until we shed the cowboy mentality that the way we handle things in this country is by the end of a gun we will continue to lead the civilized world in violence.
Your head is in the sand, Angels. That’s the problem. It’s easier to deny the issue and yell racist than to grab some bootstraps and address it. So if you are happy with how the black community as a whole is doing in relation to everyone else, then I guess, well, keep on doing what you’re doing. Maybe it will work for you one day (against all evidence to the contrary).
The rest of us will continue to invent, innovate, and excel. Good luck.
Rick Roberts 18 May 2012 at 10:16 am
Let someone talk enough, if only to be lulled by his own voice, and the truth will seep out and so will racism buried deep under the masquerading disguise of “reason” and “intellect.”
Care to elaborate, Taylor?
It is the stone cold truth, and you know it. When a group does worse — and not just a bit worse but substantially worse — on every scale that we measure yet continually looks externally for the cause or someone to blame, what do you call it?
As I said earlier, I call it an inability, unwillingness, or failure to learn and obey the rules and mores of civilized society. There are some fundamentals we all must agree on, or we won’t be able to live together, hence a very large chunk being locked away to keep the rest of us safe.
You call my thinking racist. I call it speaking truth to hard heads.
RR,
You dipsy-doodle, she did just elaborate, but your ego and your bigotry, plus a fearful amount of Cognitive Dissonance won’t let you see it.
Articulate, measured, black professionals must shudder every time that Crump appears on TV and opens his mouth. I mean really.
My God, are you hearing yourself, Rick Roberts?
Ramsgate, you don’t think the man is an embarrassment? He can barely string a sentence together. Why must things like this remain unsaid? What is wrong with expecting excellence among the professional class? Stop cowering.
Hi RR — I agree with Ramsgate… We should not all sound alike.. Crumb may be a very talented attorney.. and he does not need to sould like me (a white woman).
“sound” like me…
It’s not too much to expect professionals to sound like, well, professionals.
My head in the sand? Its yours who’s head is up his behind. If you think that we as a nation are not a violent nation then it is you my friend who is living in some fantasy world. All races in this country have their problems with violence, and for you to single out blacks is racist. This country is armed to the teeth. Know other civilized nation on this planet has the murder rate per capita that we do. We are a violent country and its a problem for everybody in this country and Mr. Zimmerman is a example of how violent we are.
Bingo Anges81
There is almost one small arm (gun) for every U.S. Citizen. Statistically speaking that means only babes in arms are not packing heat.
But that data harshes RR’s Second Amendment, happiness is a warm gun, groove. After all he need his guns for when the Black Helicopters come for him don’t ‘cha know?
I behind you 100%, angel81. The Zimmerman’s and RR’s of he world are a bunch of bullies who try to intimidate and push others around and try tell us what to believe, how to think, how we should look, dress and behave and if we dare stand up to them, they belittle us and pull out their guns to make a point.
They are a bunch of gun-toting cowards.
It’s called power of reason and intellect, LadyW. Join us. It is a wonderful place to be.
No Rick, its called racism, and you are one of their poster boys.
Angels, as I say, the rest of us will keep progressing as your community continues to languish if you stick to this knee-jerk, empty, tired retort.
Rick you don’t speak for anyone but yourself, so don’t lay that crap on me about how you speak for all these so called intelligent white folks out there who see the light according to you. If this blog is any indication on what folks think, not many stand in your corner with your race baiting tactics.
Angels, as I have recommended to you before, do a basic literature review to educate yourself. If you have never done a proper literature review, go to your nearest university library and ask the librarian for help. She will be happy to help you. You will be looking for academic papers, not Google links.
Then come back so that we may have an informed discussion.
Or continue with your head in the sand. No sweat off my back.
I do wish we could get away from the racial tensions here and especially the stereotyping.
Stereotyping? I don’t think I am stereotyping RR in any way. All you have to do is go back to all his posting on this subject, and I think it’s a fair conclusion to say he is very good at race baiting. I can’t see any other way to look at the fact that from all his posts he continues to blame blacks for the violence in this country without once admitting that violence is a problem for all races here in America, not just the black community.
I’ll go back to the question I asked Rick along time ago…If Martin had been white would we be having the same argument about the white youth culture and the gangster mentality? I don’t think there would be a peep out of Rick.
I was referring to stereotyping blacks and whites…
No, Angels, you are wrong. I try to write carefully, but you also have a responsibility to read carefully. I do not blame blacks for the violence in this country. I blame them (their community, culture, whatever) for committing a very disproportionate share of every category of crime relative to their size of the population (12%) and failing to acknowledge that reality and doing anything about it as a community. It is easier to blame and be the victim.
And you are wrong on another point. Violence is not a problem among all race groups in America. In the aggregate, whites commit most of the crimes. For their relatively small size, blacks commit a very outsized share of crime, especially violent crime. Big city crime increases proportionally to the size of the black population. Why would that be?
Visit the FBI web site and do some reading.
I agree with RR on a lot but not all things, but he opinions re: black people that I do not agree with…. and I was referring to this mostly re: my stereotyping comment.
I am also tired of the whole … what if someone had been white… simply because it is another form of conjecture. But you can have your opinion re: this, I just choose not to go there as it is irrelevant to this case (beyond conjecture). This is also a stereotyping issue to me.
There are of course statistics pertaining to this that may be brought up in trial and perhaps it will make a difference to a jury. However, this may be the type of evidence that the judge will throw out as it may not be pertinent to the case. I do not know… I am not a lawyer.
Also — I took a few days off to get some personal stuff done. Have spent way too much time on this board. Fortunately I am getting the personal stuff done as well…. except for planting my garden… tomorrow will be a good day for that.
Angels, it is a good question. Thank you for asking it. No, we would not be having this conversation because there wouldn’t have been a Sharpton or a Jackson to rile up the masses. There would have been a calm, deliberate police investigation, and Zimmerman would have been not charged at all or charged with manslaughter.
The white Martin’s parents would likely have been outraged, for all parents want to think the best about their children. There would still likely have been added scrutiny to the SYG laws.
The truly pathetic thing is you probably believe this bilg.
What part of it do you disagree with, Sec?
Some good reading:
Jonathan Turley today.
Alan Dershowitz, also today.
Last night in an earlier thread on this same issue, I expressed an opinion that I thought it was odd that after a second suspension, that Trayvon seemed to have been given so much freedom and that as a parent myself, we would never have handled it this way. I also stated that I did not think that the trace amounts of THC in Trayvon`s system, nor my opinion on the Martins` parenting (again… my opinion, which I am entitled to have)… are reasons that Trayvon should have been killed. It does not matter that I have repeatedly expressed that, in my opinion, George Zimmerman used poor judgment.
Well, I was attacked for this and called a bigot by someone on this board that I have repeatedly had good exchanges with. This same individual told me that the only reason that he could reason that I would viciously attack Trayvon`s parents is to further the perception that black parents are lazy. NEVER did I ever state anything about parenting and race, nor have I ever thought of black parents as lazy… it never occurred to me.
Race seems to be the hot button on this board. Any statement that is not perceived as pro-Martin and his family are perceived as comments from racist bigots. This is just wrong. Racial tensions are high apparently, but labeling individuals as racists just because their view differs from yours does not make them so. It is much more complicated and nuanced than that.
WP, I read the vitriol that was thrown your way last night. First I was surprised and then saddened because I thought the two of you were sort of buddies. You didn’t deserve it. You have worked hard to be neutral here, coming down against both sides, including me, when you thought we were wrong or just unkind in how we expressed ourselves.
Even with the vitriol, I think the discussions we are having here are still worth having. I am open to being wrong and admitting it, as I have with T-Steele and Ogenec more than once.
Sometimes my language provokes. I mean it to. Yours does not, and you did not deserve what happened to you last night.
Chin up.
Hi RR — I thought it was a bit odd, but I realize that people on boards can get overly heated in exchanges. If Spin really thinks this of me, well it is his oppinion to have.
My chin is up..
Whitepaw,
I slammed you because the parenting of Martin is besides the point. And whether you like it of not, following that meme has all sorts of toxic undertones dealing with bigotry, white privilege, and and unwarranted assumptions. And I really did not like what I saw as smug superiority; an implied opinion that you were so much the better parent. Nothing infuriates me than any mom trying to use a tragedy to one up another mom.
Trayvon’s mom lost her son, and you and others spat on her, implied she was less than, irresponsible. Put the shoe on the other foot Whitepaw. What if, my it never be so, you lost one of your stepsons in a DWI. What if, because of one poor choice, your stepson was the drunk driver? Do I then get to speculate on what an irresponsible, lax mom you were? Do I get to opine on your parenting skills? Do I have any real idea of how you raised your kids? Do I get to say “well since it was not really her flesh and blood, she cared less about the boy?” Not in month of Sundays Whitepaw! One more time, any person who goes with this meme, is at best not thinking clearly. At worse, they have an ax to grind; a big racist ax to grind.
“Investigation reveals that Martin was in fact running generally in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood.”
Certainly, an interesting statement……if someone can find it in it’s original document context, that would be revealing.
This is passive voice and apparently a summation. The commentary of one investigator at the end of their own report? The commentary of the SA?
If it is sourced in an actual investigators report, I would be all over that person whether I am working prosecution or defense.
What were the exact words of the witness statements that led you to this conclusion? For how long did the witness observe this running? Why do you use the adverb “generally”? What else was he doing when he was apparently not running some of the time? If you saw Martin running home, did you not also see Zimmerman running after him? Why didn’t you add that to your original statement?
If this is simply not just spinning by the SA and it actually relates to witness statement(s), this is definitely a new witness not previously discussed……..but I would definitely enjoy putting this witness on the stand.
CO
It seems to be a conclusion based on where Martin was first sighted and where he finally ended up. Possible connections of other sightings, or from Zimmerman’s own description travel, linked to the fixed location of the 7/11 where Martin purchased his ice tea and skittles gives a possible route of travel to the residence where he was staying. It is not disputed that Martin was taking evasive action, so some data points do not comply with the overall conclusion; thus hedging and the passive voice. It is also most likely a result of how police reports are made. Joe Friday is alive and well, and the “just the facts” style of blotter reports is not a thing of beauty. Police blotter reports have to survive the scrutiny of lawyers after all; and lawyers are more than willing to argue on the exact nature of the English word “to be.”
The problem with people like whitepaw and RIck Roberts is that they don’t even realize they are racists. Sad.
Jell-OH, aren’t you tired of having sand in your ears? Pull your head out of that hole. Is Angels holding your head in there?
Wouldn’t it be better for you to address my statements instead of calling me a racist? Go on. Give it a try.
So I am a racist according to you…………………..just WOW………… And it is sad because I do not even realize that I am a racist……….. What do you base this on… Have you even read what I have posted? Rather than throwing out nasty accusations, perhaps you can engage in a debate. This is absolutely ludicrous…
Whitepaw, you are a big meanie racist because you are not worshipping at the alter of the ridiculous narrative that has been fed us by Sharpton, MSNBC, et al.
No skepticism allowed.
RR — I know in my heart that I am not a racist…
Of course I cannot state anything about having black relatives or friends… because apparently that is the oldest trick in the book and really just proves one is racist.
I also am entitiled to express opinions about things, individuals, but if I am expressing something about a black person, if my opinion is not positive, I am a racist.
RR — I really do not agree with your views re: black kids (your interpretation of thugish behavior, dress, etc.)… at all.
But on this site, apparently if I have doubts about Zimmerman’s innocence or guilt, and make a statement about parenting that I found questionable…. not that I think the parenting or THC in Trayvon’s blood is any reason for him to be shot….. after repeating this over and over… making statements that I think Zimmerman used poor judgment, but does not necessarily mean he comitted a crime in Florida, according to their laws…………
Well, I am a BIGOT and a RACIST.
I suppose I am a bigot and a racist because I am not a supporter of Barack Obama as well….
This is what is surprising me most because Taylor and her readers know full well how we were treated and branded as racists simply because we supported Hillary. Even Hillary herself and Bill were branded racists. And now we have Taylor doing the very same thing.
It’s shameful and shallow. That’s what it is.
For the record, I conceded to T-Steele that I was overboard on the clothes thing. As hard as it is, I am trying not to let that be part of my thinking.
I will not concede on thuggish behavior. I think the gangsta lifestyle is the wrong thing for a culture to be celebrating. There are so many other heroes to emulate. Hell, why are they not emulating the first black president!
Bullhockey! Who made the rule that you can’t use that as a defense against their desperate, baseless charges? If your friends and relatives are a diverse group, celebrate it and proclaim it. Don’t be silenced by these bullies.
RR — I know in my heart that I am not a racist…
Cognitive Dissonance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Read it and weep, your “knowledge” about yourself may be flawed. Just because your not burning crosses or yelling Ni-CLAG at the top of your lungs does not automatically make you good person. It does not mean you are not bigoted, or just merely unaware of White Privilege. It does not mean that you don’t have some very unhealthy preconceived notions floating in that head of yours.
The thing is, if you aren’t a namby pamby, mealy-mouthed, go along fool, then you are a racist. No thinking allowed!
I still have a basic question about this case. Many state that Zimmerman was armed and Martin was unarmed… which is true… definitely true .. 100%
My question is how does one person in an altercation with another know the other is not armed? Really just curious about thoughts here. Thanks
Maybe when someone IS armed they have a false sense of power(especially when they are a cop wannabee)and they PUT themselves in situations that can and do very quickly spin out of their mistaken sense of control.
So maybe they shouldn’t be “packin” heat to make themselves feel all studly and “do you feel lucky punk” inside their pathetic selves?
I appreciate your reply Sec… Your comment seems to argue for gun control… If there were no guns readily available for purchase, this may not have happened…
Just my opinion, but are you suggesting this may have also been testosterone-driven?
Pretty well established that persons with who feel less then manly often overcompensate with guns. Ted Nugent comes to mind, a draft dodging coward who has a fetish for guns and killing so long as he is in no danger.
So yes, this was absolutely partial testosterone driven.
My question is how does one person in an altercation with another know the other is not armed? Really just curious about thoughts here. Thanks
Which speaks to argument that Zimmerman was reckless; he did not know Martin’ state of armament did he? But Zimmerman did know he was armed, and pulled that ace out when things went south didn’t he?
Still the fact Martin did not yank out a sidearm when Zimmerman got in his face gave Zimmerman a clue. That Martin relied on his fists was another. Why beat someone down when you can just plug him?
Thanks to the really crappy stand your ground law in Florida, Martin would have been justified to ventilate Zimmerman in ways that were generally unwelcome for Zimmerman’s long-term health.
But back to to fight; again why use one’s fists when you have a nice metal object to beat the crap out of your opponent? That Zimmerman was getting a beat-down, but not a pistol whipping, was another clue to Martin’s unarmed state.
Besides Martin is presently beating the crap out of Zimmerman (or not), all Zimmerman has to do is get enough separation to deploy the weapon, get the drop on Martin. Push Martin off, pull the gun, shoot, no aiming required, Martin’s still real close, no way to miss. Even if Martin has a gun, he won’t have time to use it, plus Martin is ignorant of Zimmerman’s armed state, yet another ace up Zimmerman’s sleeve. Speed of action is Zimmerman’s friend, spring the trap, do it fast, catch Martin flat footed, still busy punching Zimmerman. Good snap decision from Zimmerman POV. Not so great in retrospect perhaps, especially if a jury sees it differently.
It’s called gundar. You mean you don’t have gundar?
I do not have gundar…
It was a play on gaydar. You’ve heard of gaydar?
yes… But I did not initially get it..
*SIGH* OK…
No no no no no! Black America obeys the rules and mores of civilized society. If we dig not, AMERICA WOULD BE IN A DAILY WAR MASSIVE WAR AGAINST THE BLACK MILITANT HORDES. The Battle of 7-Mile in Detroit. The Battle of West Philly Crossing. Etc. Oh we would not be a pushover. We’ll probably get weapons from China and maybe support from every terrorist state. Oh the Black Militant Hordes of Destruction and Chaos (BMHDC). Oh and let me assume my role as Supreme Commander of the South Division of the BMHDC.
Oh we’re an insidious adversary. One that KNOWS America inside and out. Oh and don’r forget our white co-conspirators. WE WILL HAVE THEM! Could effectively make our 38 million strong army MUCH bigger. Hey we’re ALL militant. We are ALL uncivilized. And dammit, we about about to BRING THIS MUTHA DOWN!!
Barack Obama?!?!!? HA! We don’t need that fake. The real BLACK are we UNCIVILIZED BLACK HORDES! The original Civil War would BE NOTHING!
*rolls eyes six times and twice on Sunday*
Inability my foot. YES Black America has higher levels of same race violent crime per capita. But that number is nothing compared to millions of us that pay our damn taxes and obey the damn laws of this land. Don’t believe me. Raw numbers by George:
In June 2009, there were approximately 841,000 black people held in custody in state or federal prison, or in local jails. In the same year, there were roughly 41 million black people in the USA. Doing the math, a whopping 98% of black folks WERE NOT held in custody in state or federal prison, or in local jails. And that number did not shoot up to 100% in 3 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Minorities
C’mon RR! STOP IT!
Even if your 100% right about Trayvon Martin being a straight thug, IT IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF BLACK AMERICA IN GENERAL! End of the story.
And my spelling and grammar mistakes come from agitated emotion state. Uh oh… The…. HORDE…. IS….. RISING… WITHIN…. ME!! AAarrrrggghhh!!!!!
T-Steel — I appreciate your posts.
There are always reports of blacks representing the most (proportionally) in the prison population.
The perception is that blacks are profiled and arrested more than whites. This is likely true… and certainly there are statistics to support this.
My thoughts about this is that it is likely related more to class, poverty, and disadvantaged households. The current unemployent numbers for blacks far exceed whites. This must play a role…
And I accept that whitepaw. But what I don’t accept is blanket comments about black folks not being law abiding and uncivilized. Look, I know what black-on-black crime is all about. I grew up the Detroit Metro area. And it WAS and still IS a problem. I’m not arguing the numbers. But the numbers also show, as I posted earlier, that we are not a lawless, uncivilized mass.
Like I said, if Trayvon Martin IS a thug that played a BIG part in his own death, that IS NOT black folks in general. That’s the stone truth.
Stone truth, indeed, and I agree with you. Now let’s sort out the rest.
I do not accept blanket comments about black folks not being law abiding and civilized either.. not at all and never have.
What I am going to type next… I hope that whoever reads it will really read all that I type below before jumping on me… as I am truly interested in T-Steel’s opinion…
So..T-Steel:
What I was stuck by was the reaction to a comment I made in an earlier thread… last night…My comment was that, in my opinion, Trayvon Martin’s parents may not have been strict enough in their parenting post Trayvon’s second suspension… From my perspective, I found it odd that after a second suspension from high school, that he was given so much freedom…
I also stated that I did not think that the parenting or THC levels in Martin were reasons for him to be killed… It was just a comment about parenting. I assure you I would have had the same opinion of the parenting if Trayvon and his parents were latino, white, asian, etc. I have also repeatedly stated on this board that I think Zimmerman used poor judgment.
After I made the comment about the parenting, I have been labeled a racist and a bigot by some on this board. I was told by one poster that I have historically had a good relationship with that my reasons for stating what I did re: the parenting were vicious and my motive must have been to further the opinion that black parents are lazy.
I was really shocked by this as I never even mentioned race when I made the comment about my opinion of the parenting… but if there is something that I am missing… something that I typed… that appears to be a hidden racist agenda… I would like to understand.
I may not agree… but I would appreciate your input.
Whitepaw I suppose the problem is in this thread you seem tied to RR who is a hands down no male bovine fecal matter self condemned with his own words racist.
Oh, stop it, Sec. That’s my reputation you are trying to malign, and you are hurting WP’s feelings, too. Go back to bed.
“Oh, stop it, Sec. That’s my reputation you are trying to malign,”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Well at least you’re a racist with a sense of humor!!
A 17-year-old White girl is visiting her Dad and his girlfriend, and goes for a quick run down to the 7-11, just as it’s getting dark, to buy a Coke and a Twix. She’s hurrying back home so she doesn’t miss the start of “Bridezilla when she notices some Black guy in an SUV cruising her, which really creeps her out. She walks faster, and calls her best friend on her cell to tell about the creepy guy.
When the guy keeps creeping her, she starts to really walk fast, and goes off the sidewalk and cuts across some of the common area, telling her BFF on the phone she is REALLY freaked now, but will be back home in just a minute.
What happens next is a bit confusing, but we know the girl was approached and confronted by this guy, and her survivor instinct kicked in. Maybe her Mom insisted she take some Judo or MMA classes for self defense, maybe she was cornered and the guy grabbed at her, maybe she saw his gun, maybe it was flight or fight, but whatever the reason, the girl felt she had to try and fight for her life, so she did. The BFF heard a struggle and then the cell went dead.
She punched the guy. Maybe. She kicked him in the balls. Maybe. She tripped him and then jumped on him and started hitting him, even though that makes little sense. Maybe she did some of these or none of these or all of these. We do know that the guy, who had creeped her, parked his car and followed her across a complex in the misty rainy dark, took his 9mm and shot her in the chest from 1 inch to four feet away.
We know he wasn’t charged or tox checked, and witnesses were brushed off, we know that. We know it came out that the girl had a trace amount of THC in her system, and the media says she liked to sleep around and slut shamed her, and she had to do community service because she was foolish and spray painted a building once. And she even smoked a little Pot.
Why did this White girl make the Black man shoot her? Why did she cause her own murder?”
That about sums up the stupidity/hypocrisy and pretty clearly shows the racist motivation behind some of the postings here. They would NEVER say this crap about a sweet little White girl…but a young Black male? HE DESERVED TO DIE! IT WAS HIS FAULT!!!
Sec, all of that is legally irrelevant. Zimmerman was in a place he had a right to be in when he was attacked by Trayvon Martin. He legally defended himself. It is very simple. I realize you don’t like that.
“Sec, all of that is legally irrelevant. Zimmerman was in a place he had a right to be in when he was attacked by Trayvon Martin. He legally defended himself. It is very simple. I realize you don’t like that.”
I suppose that’s why the night of the homicide the investigator thought he should be charged with manslaughter and he was in fact charged with murder? (and by the by, WHY was the investigator overruled? was that before or after daddy Zimmerman, the ex justice called police?)So because YOU say his act of homicide was legal makes it so since it supports your racist views?
I forgot to credit the original poster over at Democraticunderground for their comment which I slightly modified.
It’s not race, or class, or poverty. It’s culture, and it’s pervasive.
You know squat about black culture, you’re just a biased, bigoted observer of a small slice of that culture. What you are doing is akin to smearing all Italians on the actions of the Mafia. You would never, in a million years dare to make that comparison in real life. You would never dare to link the actions of the Mafia to stand in for all Italians.
But black folk; no problem. Dey all thugs, can’t trust a one, no sir-ree. Just look at them with their hip-hop cloths, listening to that gangster music; thugs I say! Sweet Baby Jesus On A Pogo Stick, you are so transparent in your bigotry, but you still can’t see it.
Oh, calm down, sir. You’re one of my favorites. I like the ones who act right.
That’s. A. Joke. !
I never said and hope that I haven’t implied that the thug contingent is representative of black America in general because I don’t believe that. If I have said something like that, bring me the quote so that I may do my mea culpa.
I do know — and so does the FBI — that the crime cohort among blacks is proportionally quite a helluva lot larger than blacks’ 12% of the population. That is the problem that I would like to see acknowledged and addressed by more than just a few.
“Oh, calm down, sir. You’re one of my favorites. I like the ones who act right.
That’s. A. Joke. !”
No, no it’s not. Everything you post says otherwise.
Oh, drink your milk and go back to bed, Sec. You old coot.
There is no disputing those facts. AND I’m also one of those black folks that don’t believe that it’s all due to profiling as well. There are pockets in Black America where there is a deep cycle of criminal behavior. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. But I do separate criminal and foolish behavior. The popular term of calling someone “ghetto” due to their hair style, clothing, way of talking, and overall presentation DOES NOT necessarily mean said individual is a criminal. I know a “ghetto” acting woman that’s a trauma nurse. That woman… WOW! She is… uh… a character to put it nicely. But she hasn’t had a speeding ticket and have won employee awards multiple times during her 10 years of ER work. But she’s a hot mess when she goes out with her girls. All that glitter and sass and too tight clothing and sparking high heel shoes and… whoa.. She would be a poster child for some of these websites that take pictures of the so-called “ghetto” acting folks.
There are pockets in Black America where there is a deep cycle of criminal behavior. T-Steel.
No jobs, no future, no hope, no way out. Gee, why these guys and gals become violent? Why would the criminal drug trade make these underlying issues worse? It should be all rainbows and unicorns farting glitter. :
Nothing better for you then glitter coated bootstraps to pull yourself up by!!
Well she’d better not walk to the store in Zimmerman’s neighborhood or she’s toast.
Well he’s NOT right about Trayvon and he sure as hell sounds just like all the other racists I’ve known who will argue till blue in the face that they are NOT racist…those people just ARE that way, everybody knows that!
Sec, to whom are you speaking here? You gets me all confused, Sec, what with the ALLCAPS and hyperbole.
” Supreme Commander of the South Division of the BMHDC.” T-Steel
Not Lord High Muckety Muck Of The Whole Shooting Match T-Steel? Not Grand Exalted Pooh-bah Of The Illustrious Ebony Warriors?
That’s the problem with “you people,” no ambition.
Sec, I want you to know that I wear your disapproval as expressed in your barking mad rantings as a badge of honor. Keep it coming.
I didn’t find your comment remotely racist/bigoted about the parenting aspect, whitepaw. Hidden racist agenda due to the parenting comment? Naaa…. I can’t see it and I’m wide awake at this late hour. And I really have nothing more to say.
Thank you T-Steel… Very much..