**updated**
THE PROSECUTION DOCUMENT DUMP on Thursday released a lot of information. The audio clip via Think Progress, which is above, is an interview with a witness and reveals something that shows up in the Sanford Police Report and surfaces in multiple depictions of George Zimmerman.
It goes back to his 46 calls to 911 over several years, as well as his refusal to listen to the 911 operator and not pursue Martin, with his determination to insert himself into what should have been police business upon reporting Trayvon Martin as “suspicious” a main cause for Trayvon Martin’s death.
It’s why the Sanford Police Report says the fatal incident between Zimmerman and Marting was “ultimately avoidable.”
The man being interviewed in the audio paints a picture of George Zimmerman as a bully. Zimmerman also continually called human resources: “he was fired for calling HR hotline so many times…he would complain about each and every manager and employee.” The witness was clearly affected by what he depicts as George Zimmerman’s relentless badgering that made his life miserable.
Zimmerman, according to the witness, targeted him because he was Middle Eastern. He repeatedly called the man a “fucking moron” and mocked him using the voice of “Achmed the terrorist.” Zimmerman’s stories about the man would involve “bombing,” “I’ll kill your family” and other “jokes” about “Middle Eastern stuff.” According to the man, this went on “for days and days.” [Think Progress]
The prosecution has reportedly withheld 10% of their case from the public at this point. Expect more character depictions of Zimmerman that flesh out the type of person he is, as well as anecdotes that could reveal more about why he was prescribed medication for anxiety and insomnia.
The audio also puts into perspective some of the language used by Zimmerman with the 911 operator.
UPDATE: I would have skipped Mr. Dershowitz’s efforts today completely, because he leaps over the biggest problem with his analysis, which is really quite embarrassing considering his vaunted resume, minus his myopia on the Middle East. But Dave Weigel offered the perfect rebuttal and where I would have started, so I’ll at least post it.
Problem: Dershowitz is missing the reason why this became a national story in the first place. Had Zimmerman been arrested on the fateful night, this current discovery/autopsy process would have begun immediately. Benjamin Crump, the main attorney for the Martin family, has said that he only got involved in the case because he expected Zimmerman to be arrested, and he wasn’t. That’s how this became a national debate about “stand your ground” and the standards of the Sanford PD. That’s why ABC News and other news outlets drip-drab-dripped out the details as they reported them. That’s why the police chief resigned and the city distanced itself from the department’s work.
Well now the door will be swung open WIDE! Now Trayvon Martin’s character will now be dug into VERY DEEP and exposed for all the world to see. What’s good for the goose will definitely be good for the gander.
This will not be pretty for Martin’s parents. Because the next extension of going after Martin’s character is going after his parents. Why did they divorce? Marriage dynamics. Relationship with their son. So on and so forth. This is PRECISELY why I feel the prosecution should have went with a manslaughter case. You don’t need to dig deep into the character of a person for manslaughter. But nope. Zimmerman’s defense attorneys now have an open invitation to dissect a teenager. And I can’t blame them for doing so.
Excellent point T-Steel.
Also — If this individual’s testimony is correct, this would show Zimmerman was biased against people from the Middle East… but not necessarily African Americans.
I am not a lawyer so do not know how this will play out in a court of law, but the jury will have to consider all the evidence… forensics, in addition to character. I assume the jury is told they must rule beyond a reasonable doubt… and if there are unanswered questions, who initiated the altercation, if the prosecution cannot prove that Zimmerman was not turning to his truck, and that there are from the disclosure eyewitnesses that show Zimmerman was being beaten, and that Zimmerman did indeed have injuries that can be seen in photos, then I am not sure how big a role the character witnesses will play.. but that remains to be seen.. and determined by the jury.
Also — Zimmerman’s mother claimed that Zimmerman was mentoring Black youth(s)… If that is true, the defense should be able to get evidence of this.
I have no idea if Zimmerman is racist or not.. He may be, and it may also be true that some are cherry picking information.
T, I’m disagreeing with you on this one. I don’t think the judge will allow much about Trayvon’s character unless it speaks to aggressiveness or past incidents of violence. I think the parents are safe, too. What would be the point?
Still, getting ahead of it all, I don’t even think it will go to trial.
Perhaps it will not be allowed as evidence at the trial, but the media will certainly take off with it…..Just my prediction, but I anticipate further character assasinations by the media of all parties involved (parents, siblings, Zimmerman and Martin).
Not going to trial, huh? I can imagine the reaction to THAT!
Violence, you mean? Let’s hope not.
The tactic of the prosecution is going to be to have the jury and judge hate or at least greatly dislike the Zimmerman. I am sure the defense is going to show the nice side of Zimmerman and get the jury and judge to love him or at least make him a likable guy.
I do not like hearing about this –
I am arab and listening to people saying this and doing those things that the witness said Zimmerman did when they were co-workers, is a pain.
I wonder how this testimony will provide any evidence of guilt. Is the prosecution trying to paint a picture of George Zimmerman as a “drugged out, severely mentally ill, racist, profiling, gung-ho vigilante, bully, compulsive human resources 911 and non-emergency number dialer.
Like all trials of a serious crime all this goes to character of the accused. It will up to the defense to defuse this if they can. This is all fair game in a court of law unless the judge rules that it has no bearing on the case.
This would NEVER be tolerated where I work… I work for a large corporation and nothing is tolerated pertaining to discrimination of any sort. I am a white female and I am in the minority at my place of work … I work mostly with individuals from India, Pakistan, China, and other parts of Asia, a very diverse environment.
If anything such as the witness claims Zimmerman stated occurred where I work, and was reported to HR… there would be a quick investigation, and if found to be true, immediate dismissal.
What I find odd, if I understand it correctly, is that Zimmerman was ultimately let go because he called HR too many times.. If the witness is telling the truth, Zimmerman should have been let go after the witness reported him to HR.
Have to remember whitepaw, this is Florida, another wonderful right to work state.
I am not sure how being a right to work state is on the side of Zimmerman discriminating against a co-worker and not losing his job as a result.
FYI, there are no unions where I work so the corporate policy against discrimination is more of a legal issue… than anything else.
What does right to work have to do with anything?
“If the witness is telling the truth, Zimmerman should have been let go after the witness reported him to HR.”
Riiiiiiight….some who post here basically seem to feel it was OK to kill a kid because he wore a Hoodie and you think badgering a middle eastern individual in post 9-11 America, let alone Florida would or will get someone fired?!!!!!
Sec, that is an outrageous lie, and you know it. Who thinks that? Really, tell us. Which of us thinks we should have open season on kids wearing hoodies. Shame on you.
I never stated it was OK to kill a kid for wearing a hoodie…. How many times do I have to repeat that it was a tragedy (the whole killing and what has resulted thus far)…. and do I have to state that I think Zimmerman used poor judgment. I keep repeating myself ad nauseum to only get the same replies from you SEC… The only question I have is whether there is enough proof to convict Zimmerman of breaking a law in Florida. There may very well be.
I guess I must apologize to everyone for being interested in this case, enough to read about it, examine the ACTUAL evidence (which I certainly have not been able to get through all that is available to me). So… apologies overall for studying this, learning about the law, and keeping an open mind. I will attempt to keep any opinions to myself… all the while being labeled a racist by so many… simply because I have not stated that Zimmerman is guilty before the evidence is revealed and his innocence or guilt is determined by a court of law.
Oh… I forgot….. our justice system has been determined to be unworthy on this site and not to be trusted… Therefore the final verdict means nothing on this site… he has already been found guilty here…. and those who still have questions…. you are RACIST… just accept it.
Good for you, WP. Many people are following this case for the same reason crime shows, Court TV, and mystery novels are popular. It’s interesting.
The bottom line for me is why was Zimmerman given a conceal carry permit when he had a history of violence? No matter what happens in this case it has exposed the SYG law as a very bad law that needs to be repealed.
You claim he had a history of violence, but this so-called history was completely discredited by the judge at the arthur hearing. Essentially, the judge said much ado about nothing…
Zimmerman and his ex-girlfriend both got restraining orders against each other… and the otherr altercation with the undercover police was reduced to a misdemeaner and he attended anger management classes. I think that as long as he only had a misdemeanor, then he was able to get a concealed carry permit.
Anybody who is mandated to attend anger management classes definitely has a problem. And that alone should have been enough to keep the guy from getting a permit. This just backs up my stance that it is a very bad law.
I agree — May be a bad law…
Also, you must not believe in rehabilitation…. That perhaps the anger management worked for Zimmerman.
Actually I do believe some people can be rehabilitated but some cannot. Either way, why give someone like him a gun permit? Mentally ill people can’t get guns under the Brady Law so why should he be able to get a concealed carry permit?
“Also, you must not believe in rehabilitation…. That perhaps the anger management worked for Zimmerman.”
Completely irrelevant to whether he should have been issued a concealed carry permit. His completion of the course simply fulfilled a court requirement.
I am not sure of the laws in Florida re: CCW. I read somewhere that if Zimmerman had been convicted of a felony, he would have been denied the CCW. It does seem like a bad law and perhaps this case will result in scrutiny of the law. If Zimmerman was given his CCW, but should have been denied it, this will likely come out as well.
At this time, there is no evidence that Zimmerman suffers from mental illness, so I am not sure why this was brought up pertaining to the Brady Law.
1″You claim he had a history of violence,”
No CLAIM, documented in police records…and arrest records…and court records.
2.” but this so-called history was completely discredited by the judge at the arthur hearing.”
First off that is apples to oranges, we are questioning why he was issued a permit with a documented history of violence.
3.” Essentially, the judge said much ado about nothing…”
That was his, very bad in my opinion and would seem to be born out by Zimmermans actions, call on the judges part.
EXACTLY. What was the reason this rambo wannabee needed a conceal permit. And HOW the hell did he get one with his record!!
What actually ended up on Zimmerman’s rap sheet? Was he found guilty of battery on the officer or his girlfriend? I don’t know. I’m asking.
I’ll ask you the same question about Martin. What is on his rap sheet? Has he been found guilty of anything? You’ve spent a lot of time telling us what a little gangster Martin was, so how about it?
Good point, and I agree with you, Angels. I was just asking because I don’t know — not to defend.
Nothing that I know of. I believe Crump had Martin’s school and juvenile records, if there were any, sealed shortly after he was shot. I read this somewhere… Not sure if this is true at all… and just to be clear, am not suggesting Martin was guilty of anything other than what he was suspended for… or even that that was bad at all….
Zimmerman was never found guilty of battery against his girlfriend… They both got restraining orders against each other and this issue was closed. I do not have any details about the incident, but I wonder if the girlfriend will be called as a witness against Zimmerman’s character.
Zimmerman was found guilty of a misdemeaner .. resisting officer without violence. Initially the charge was resisting an officer with violence and battery, but the charge was reduced to the non-violence and misdemeaner … and he attended anger management classes.
This all happened when he was 20 in 2005.
Well, I am strongly in favor of rigorous background checks before someone can buy a weapon. I don’t know enough about it to say much more.
If it were me, I wouldn’t want something I didn’t do to be held against me, and though serious mental illness (schizophrenia) should definitely be a factor, I don’t think I should have my entire record and list of medicines exposed. Where would it end?
Because it is his right as an American citizen.
In the last few minutes of the recording – when Zimmerman responded to the manager he did it in such a relaxed, convincing way that the interviewee here questioned himself.
How can Zimmerman’s story be believed? Especially when his “wounds” could be inflicted with one punch to his nose with him falling down and hitting his head to cause some small cuts. Hardly life threatening and not consistent with “battering his head on the concrete”.
AliceP, can you elaborate? Is this from some of the evidence that has been released because I do not understand your first paragraph. I get the second which is your conjecture.
Also if what we have heard is true, that Martin was shot at intermediate range instead of point blank it kind of throws into question that Martin was sitting on top of Mr. Zimmerman pounding the hell out of him when he was shot.
Angels… Intermediate range has been determined to be between 1 and 18 inches in this case I believe. Also, Casualobserver noted that there are differing forensics from the medical examiner, observing the wound, and the forensics of Martin’s clothes which specify it was close range.. Essentially, if I understand correctly, Martin may have been on top of Zimmerman, with his clothes, due to gravity, leaning towards the ground, leaving a space anywhere between 1 and 18 inches between the clothes which revelaed powder tatoos and the bullet wound to the skin. I may not have all the details right, but the whole intermediate range issue has been misconstrued. Intermediate range is still a shot at what most that are not familiar with forensics would consider close range.
Everything I have read is that the intermediate range for gunshot wounds are from 8 to 30 inches depending on stippling. Anything under 8 inches is considered close range to point blank range depending once again on the stippling.
There have been reports indicating that it was 1in to 18in… but the autopsy report only indicates intermediate range. I checked re: intermediate range and have a few links where they indicate the following details (I posted this a few days back):
Some details about intermediate range
“In near-contact wounds, the muzzle is not in contact with the skin, but is very close. In this case, the powder grains do not have a chance to disperse and leave a powder tattooing. The entrance wound is surrounded by a wide zone of powder soot, and seared, blackened skin. In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing. This type of wound is also characterized by numerous reddish-brown to orange-red lesions around the entrance to the wound. Finally, distant gunshot wounds leave no marks other than those produced by the bullet perforating the skin.”
http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/gunshot-wounds/
Also — Intermediate range gunshot wounds from what I googled can occur within the following range (6-8 inches to 1.5-3.5 ft).. I think his depends on the gun. I did find another ballistics report that stated that intermediate range, indicated by powder tatooing, can occr as close as 10mm which is less than half an inch. I am not sure which is correct, and I assume the prosecution has more ballistic details to determine the distance from the gun to the skin.
This is from a comment about the discovery on Jeralyns site that Taylor recommended (although typically biased towards the defense):
Angels, it looks as if we are getting a mini battle of the experts on this one. I am learning different things from various sources that seem credible. I saw a good link they other day that even included gory photos. I’ll try to find that one.
I also read somewhere that the bullet didn’t exit because it was one of those that spreads out.
Amazing, first Zimmerman denigrated blacks, then there were his disparaging comments about Mexicans, now we add Arab-Americans to the mix, and yet, the Zimmerman apologists on this site are still not prepared to call this man a bigot. They will go to any length, manufacture any extenuating circumstance to give him the benefit of the doubt. Without knowing the facts they have guessed at and delved into Trayvon Martin’s upbringing and found it wanting; while they have completely absolved Zimmerman’s parents, by their silence on the subject. Zimmerman was the killer. A man with an extremely violent past, yet these apologists have chosen to completely absolve him of that past.
That past includes, battery, domestic violence and fighting with police officers. Tut, tut Tut. Interestingly, according to the racists on the site, these crimes are more in keeping with the culture and behavior of African-Americans. Given how Martin’s school expulsion and marijuana possession has been exaggerated by the apologists to become almost capital offenses; one can only imagine what would have happened had he been accused of just one of Zimmerman’s offenses. Just one.
Where was Zimmerman’s parents as as their son was tussling with the law? – Where was the Judge? Why wasn’t HIS parenting judged as Martin’s parents was judged? After his son abused and battered his first woman why didn’t they give their son a good talking-to? After he shoved a cop — a felony, why didn’t they tell him to start minding his own damned business? Zimmerman is always sticking his damned nose where it doesn’t belong, and that’s why he’s is in the mess he is in now. As the prosecutor stated, had he stayed in his car, TMartin would be alive today.
Once, twice, three time. Once is coincidence, twice happenstance, three times, enemy action. In my opinion, Zimmerman is a bigot. And other bigots will always see this through the racist or bigoted eyes.
Right on brother, tell it like it is in the real world, not the deluded world some of the posters here live in.
Where? When? Source?
Why do you all want to make a case that the state has said it is not interested in?
It’s really simple RR….That is what the feds are investigating.
That will go nowhere. It is nothing more than Holder’s attempt to mollify the mob. Care to wager?
So now you are a lawyer? I’m not a lawyer, so how the hell would I know? I’m also not a spokesman for Mr. Zimmerman, so I wouldn’t make a stupid statement that, that charge would go nowhere.
I just thought it would be fun to have a wager between two strong personalities with strong opinions. I like you, and you know you like me too, despite your insults when we are discussing this topic. Come on and admit it. Ya like me, dontcha, Angels?
Good point… Perhaps Zimmerman’s parents should be questioned re: their parenting skills as well. The only difference is that Zimmerman was an adult when the instances you refer to occurred. Nonetheless, it could have been poor parenting that lead to this. I guess this will all come out during the trial and the subsequent character assasination of everyone (as T-Steel stated above, this likely opens the door to attack everyone… parents on both sides included). I still stand by my views re: the parenting issue and I will not let you BULLY me into thinking otherwise or that I am racist for doing so. Think what you want.
I am interested in this case and the dynamics of everything and as such, spent my lazy Saturday morning reading about it as I am recovering from some bug I came down with yesterday.
I must state that I find it odd that many things on this site repeatedly are stated as if they are fact when thus far, there is not evidence to support it. And many things may be greatly exaggerated. I have been trying to read the actual discovery evidence before determining my opinions on Zimmerman’s innocence or guilt.
In fact, many on other sites are doing the same… rationally and without emotion and cries of RACIST whenever someone presents evidence, or questions another’s view.
Poor parenting? The kid was walking down the street from the store to his home, minding his own business and breaking no laws.
Should have had his ass grounded at home with no TV, no internet, certainly no cell phone, and certainly again no $40 in his pocket. Is that what responsible parents do when their kids get shunned by school?
Way to go RR. Here you sit on some blog telling Martins parents what they should and shouldn’t do when you have no idea what they said, did or for that matter even who the hell they are. You know nothing about their lives, never meet them. never talked to anyone who has meet them, but yet you think you are qualified to make a judgement about their parenting skills.
This is why you get the racism charge thrown at you.
Angels, your entire first paragraph made no mention of race, and then you threw in This is why you get the racism charge thrown at you.
What does my opinion of how the Martins responded to Trayvon’s suspension have to do with race? That makes zero sense to me.
It depends Rick. You don’t know all the fact there either. I had a student suspended when he stuck his hand in his coat pocket for a pen and an empty bag of pot fell out. Now my student did not smoke pot because he had serious asthma but his brother who often borrowed his coat did.
I agree that if a student gets suspended from school, for a serious offense, his parents should have uncomfortable consequenses at home. Like loss of priviledges for a while. However, I won’t judge his parents by these circumstances.
It fits the profile from all the posts you have made on this subject over the course of weeks of posting.
Angels, that was not an answer to my question. Try again, please.
This was based upon posts over the last few days….Where I stated an OPINION, that as a parent I would have grounded Trayvon for his second suspension. But that is just me, and I NEVER meant that this was reason for Trayvon to get killed. In fact, I specifically stated that I did not think that either parenting or Trayvon being suspended should excuse that he was shot. Nonetheless, I was told that I was a vicious bigot for questioning the parenting and that this was essentially proof that I am racist because I was furthering the view that apparently some peple have (certainly not me), that Black parents are lazy. This thought never even occurred to me. The only thing that I thought was that Martin should have been grounded due to his suspension.
The point I wanted to make was to refute the people who keep saying if only Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle. It’s illogical to go down that road, for we can create any number of alternate realities, i.e., if only Trayvon had been grounded at home, or if only Zimmerman had fallen asleep on his couch, or if only the sun hadn’t come up that day.
The exercise is pointless.
Tell it, Ramsgate.
I’m still waiting to hear from the Zimmerman apologists, not to be confused with defense lawyers, if anyone posting here is a gun owner, has fired a weapon, has a weapon in their home, is familiar with what a concealed carry permit, let alone Stand Your Ground privileges, mean with regard to responsibility.
Every person SIDING with Zimmerman, which is what is happening with many people here and has no relation to defense arguments from lawyers making legal arguments, should answer the question I raised the other day on their own knowledge of firearms, because until you understand the power in the hands of someone on the street tracking an unarmed man, which police told him not to do, your opinion is uninformed on a major aspect of this case.
I’ll leave aside the absurd notion that someone fighting insomnia and anxiety issues, taking meds that *can* make people aggressive, should have the right of a concealed carry permit in the first place.
The question is irrelevant.
Your opinions are just your opinions Taylor. It of course is your site… and it is clearly an editorial site.
vs
Every person SIDING with the prosecution, which is what is happening with many people here and has no relation to prosecution arguments from lawyers making legal arguments
Excuse me… your site is analysis… full of your opinions…. All editorial with much of it not backed up pertaining to the facts of this case as they have thus far been presented. You may in the end be 100% correct, and your opinions as they are now may be verified… but as of now, they are just your opinions… which of course you are entitled to.
Furthermore… you seem to have no issue with screams of racism on this site towards posters when much of the discussion has simply centered around analysing the evidence. This I find extremely disappointing… but it is your site to cheerlead for those who you agree with…. and subtly suggest that those you do not agree with are racist.
Bully for you Taylor (pun intended).
You people are all so petty. 350 comments over a three week period would be a rough estimate of the time and energy devoted to what is at best a routine murder of the sort that happens everyday in this violence prone country. If it were not so pathetic it would be funny. If this is an example of what progressives do with their spare time I think I will consider becoming a conservative.
Fangio, I make claim to a good chunk of the comments because I refuse to let them just have a big nasty lovefest of ridiculousness without throwing some sense in their direction.
Have fun.
Fun is not what I am after.
I wasn’t responding to you. Please try to keep up will you
Oh, sorry! I see now. Yeah, it would not be fun to switch to the conservative side. That would mean Sunday school and going to CPAC. Blech!
—Taylor Marsh
(source)
Taylor cannot help herself. She keeps repeating something hoping that one day it will be true.
I don’t realy understand the drive by some commentors to absolve Zimmerman either? I am guessing that whitepaw is being scientific and over objective.
If one has worked with troubled individuals who tend toward acting out in a violent manner you develop an emotional intelligence about them. Zimmerman’s past behaviors hit all my buttons. Many of these guys are over anxious and fearful. Another person dealing with a young man defending himself might not have felt it was a deadly threat.
How could Martin have not have felt like he had to defend himself? How many stories have we heard with horriffic endings that involved an attack or kidnapping of a teenager?
I do have to wonder if the situation was reversed if the same care would be taken to try to absolve Martin? I am not calling the commenters racist. More like tribal and unwittingly biased. To guard oneself against bias takes an almost daily riger of self questioning and awareness of the messages we internalize coming through media. It is those automatic connections and assumptions we make that we must catch and question.
Much easier for me having taught a diverse population of teens. I knew them as individuals and saw through all the cultural influences to the kids they really were. Kids like any other with tender hearts and feelings hidden under attitudes and behind protective walls.
LL, how do you know this to be the scenario? If Zimmerman attacked Martin, where are Martin’s scrapes, cuts, and bruises?
Following him like he did was enough of a threat. Don’t we teach our children that there are bad people out threr and they must be on guard?
Trayvon was a big boy, not the wee widdle tot you keep seeing on the teevee. All he had to say was that he was a guest of Mr Martin’s girlfriend. Instead he doubled back and physically assaulted George Zimmerman. That got him killed.
Why should have Martin who was just walking home from the store tell any stranger were he was going or what he was doing? I know if some stranger asked me anything like that, I’d tell him its none of his damn business.
I don’t care what his physical size was he was a KID. A kid who would have safely walked to his father’s girfriend’s house and not been involved with any crime if Zimmerman had not pursed him.
Why is Zimmerman’s feeling of threat given more weight than Martin’s?
Let’s see, Angels, well, um, that’s how people behave in civilized society. It is normal. Or you could take the alternate route and physically assault another human being, which is not how people behave in civilized society. Plus, it will get your ass shot. And did.
RR… We do not know that Martin doubled back… Just as there appears to be no concrete evidence that Zimmerman confronted and initiated the altercation with Martin, we also do not have concrete evidence of Martin doing the same to Zimmerman… At least not any evidence that I have yet heard of.
The evidence appears (at this time), to indicate that Zimmerman did get out of his car to follow Martin….but before he was told that he did not need to do so… and then Zimmerman remained on the phone with the dispatcher for quite a bit more time. At some point the two met… after Zimmerman had hung up with the dispatcher. Perhaps more evidence will indicate how they met and if Zimmerman was truly following Martin at that point or not.
Then how did he jump Zimmerman?
How about the bullet hole in his chest?
#11 Whitepaw: Listen to all of the audio that Taylor posted. You will hear a description of Zimmerman as really convincing at getting his boss to believe hhis side of this bullying story. Sounds like he is a convincing liar. This is in the last 2 minutes of the audio.
Thanks — I will listen..
RR~ The police report said that one way for this to have been avoidable was for Zimmerman to have identified himself to Martin and asked what he was doing.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Makes not a bit of difference.
Trayvon bought the farm because he broke a cardinal rule of living with the rest of us: he physically assaulted another human being. Not smart. And now lookie? He no longer gets to live with the rest of us. One can hope this would be a lesson to others who would see assault as a remedy to grievance, but I doubt it.
BTW~ whitepaw, I see no problem whatsoever with your interest in the case and it’s facts. I think you would make a very good person on the jury. Willing to be open minded and objective. I just think your current life experiences put you in a different place than people with far different work place rules.
I think angels comment about ‘right to work state’ is that it implies little concern for the rights of employees. Keep in mind that you work in a rarified world of science with highly educated people. Some people pluck the feathers off chickens for a living.
Thanks LL — Good point… I am living in a bastion of liberalism and do work with a diverse group of highly educated individuals. It just never occurs to me to think about anyone’s motives based upon race, I tend to look at what people say and do…. again regardless of race, so when someone accuses me of being a racist on this board, just because I question things, I am dumbstruck.
I certainly am not perfect, make many mistakes, and am not so naive to think that racism is a thing of the past at all. I just question (again that word), when others immediatley throw racism charges out there because another person does not see the world through the same glasses.
Trayvon Martin being killed by George Zimmerman proves conclusively he followed Martin after his 911 call, ignoring the dispatcher by getting out of his car, which the Washington Post report below confirms.
What is in contention by fair minded people, not to be confused with bigoted Zimmerman apologists, is the word “confrontation,” see second graph below, which Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara does challenge, because if he didn’t he’d be negligent.
It’s obvious who isn’t interested in fairness, which can be seen through arguments that take only one side, usually Zimmerman’s.
People are blithely ingoring that Trayvon Martin’s civil rights to walk un-accosted as long as he’s not breaking the law were abridged by George Zimmerman.
Washington Post, March 28:
CNN:
What is the point of the Washington Post excerpt? Is that another one of these if only alternate reality scenarios? It matters not a hill of beans that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle. He had every right.
And speaking of the window incident, where is that in the discovery? I have gone through all 183 pages and do not see it. Perhaps I missed it? Can you help Taylor? It must be there somewhere.
I do not think it is in the 183 pages…
And did you notice the Wa Post link is from March 28th!
Yes, I did. Sure did. They are preparing for the after.
See, if it’s not in the discovery, that means the prosecutors either left it out by accident, decided they couldn’t use it, or that Mr Martin mixed up the story he heard from the investigator.
If the prosecution has withheld it, they won’t be able to spring it at trial. This ain’t Perry Mason.
My bet? Mr Martin’s grieving mind got it mixed up in the retelling.
Point?
You don’t know that Martin was accosted. And you really want to define a civil right that way? Does that mean that if I am walking through downtown Atlanta and one street vendor after another is shoving wares in front of me — nay accosting me — that my civil rights are being violated?
Taylor — Have you carefully listened to the 911 tape? If not, perhaps you should. When listening to it, it sounds as if Zimmerman got out of the car after he stated that Martin was running….(about 2:15..) Then, while out of the car, he appeared to be running or walking fats… and then the dispatch operator said he did not need to follow…. then he seems to catch his breath (indicating he stopped running to follow Martin at that time). And.. then.. Zimmerman was on the phone with the dispatcher for another good minute while still out of his car, discussing where he would meet the police. He stated he did not know where Martin was. After the hangup, I believe about 80 seconds passed before the police arrived and Zimmerman was dead.
What Tracy Martin stated about what a police officer told him is hardly conclusive, even if printed in the Washington Post. If it comes out that Zimmerman’s recounting of the situation is full of holes, then this will come out in trial.
I suppose during that 80s after Zimmerman hung up, Zimmerman could have returned to his truck, and Martin could have followed him back to his car, and then Zimmerman may have rolled down his window, and Martin may have asked why are you following me… and then Zimmerman denied it… and then minutes later Zimmerman decided to pursue… etc..etc..etc..(per Tracy Martin and your post above). The timeline does not really allow for this, and as the 911 tape seems to indicate Zimmerman was out of his truck already… wouldn’t the police dispatcher have heard this dialogue between Zimmerman and Martin before Zimmerman got out of his truck?
This does not hold water. I still maintain Zimmerman used poor judgment. His story may be full of holes…
But Tracy Martin’s account to the Washingtn Post appears to have holes as well.
Also Taylor —
You are posting an article from the Washington Post on March 28th as proof of what happened that evening in February?
And…
Re: your statement:
It’s obvious who isn’t interested in fairness, which can be seen through arguments that take only one side, usually Zimmerman’s.
People are blithely ingoring that Trayvon Martin’s civil rights to walk un-accosted as long as he’s not breaking the law were abridged by George Zimmerman.
I am certainly not arguing that Trayvon had the right to walk unaccosted. Zimmerman used poor judgment, but he had the right to get out of his truck as well. We (this includes you, Taylor) do not know who confronted and accosted whom at this time and may never know. We just have to wait for the rest of the evidence and the trial, unfortunately.
Here is the 911 call from Zimmerman if anyone cares to listen as opposed to reading the transcript Taylor provided. Listening may make a difference compared to Taylor’s interpretation of events… but only to anyone who has not already made up their mind of Zimmerman’s guilt. Note — This is not the version previously edited by NBC that resulted in multiple firings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8
Try this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8
whitepaw 19 May 2012 at 7:00 pm
LOLZ.
That’s funny coming from you.
I am not feeling well today….so apologies all around.
But I have NOT made up my mind. I just refuse to rush to judge. You, however, choose to not believe me and agree with other posters here that I m a racist, which I find extremely offensive. But I guess that is just me.
Did you listen to the 911 tape to address what I stated?
Taylor, are you certain you posted the transcript excerpt to bolster your point and not the bigoted Zimmerman apologists?
By the way, just to keep it clear, confront ≠ assault.
It wasn’t posted to “bolster [my] point.” But then you wouldn’t appreciate that, because you’re too busy, as are others, blaming the dead teenager.
It was offered to make the point re: O’Mara challenging “confront,” which he is right to do.
TM NOTE: Part of the comment below has been crossed over. It is inappropriate and beyond the bounds of decency. “rr” is now in moderation, as is “whitepaw.” I regret anything so vile as “I am blaming the dead teenager” ever appearing in these comments and personally apologize for the indecency of people who haven’t the good grace to know it’s beyond the bounds of debate to say such vile things. I value each and every reader and depend on you to keep the lights on around here. However, brazen bravado proclaiming “I am blaming the dead teenager” is beyond the pale, and I don’t need anyone here that thinks otherwise.
Taylor, how about suspending disbelief for a moment and consider this. Let me stipulate for this exercise that George followed Trayvon. He lost sight of Trayvon. Trayvon jumped and pinned him and pummeled him.
If those things are true and George feared serious bodily injury or death, was he justified in shooting?
Yes, I am blaming the dead teenager. Sure am. He was not a sweet little innocent. Unlike Whitepaw, I am ready to conclude, based on what we know, that Trayvon physically assaulted George, a wholly inappropriate thing to do in civilized society — and ours still is for now — and paid a dear price for it.To be clear everyone, George Zimmerman is not on trial for following another human being.
You are right about Rick. But George Zimmerman did kill another human being. At least we can all agree on that because he admitted that he did. He shot and killed Treyvon Martin because fat out of shape Zimmerman figured out pretty quickly that his fat out of shape ass was no match for a fair fight. So he pulled out his gun and killed Treyvon.
I for one am thrilled that Zimmerman got his ass kicked but sorry that a 17-year old died in the process. Because we all know that 17 year-old young men never make mistakes in judgment, but the 28 year old with the gun was just being a good citizen and stalking tall scary looking dudes in hoodies. Perhaps they should erect a statue of Zimmerman on the spot where Martin’s body fell so that everyone in the community understands they need to bow down and quiver whenever fellow gun-toting citizens believe they shouldn’t be where they are doing whatever the gun toting dudes don’t like.
So that we’re clear, Lake Lady is thrilled that in 2012, in the 21st century, here in America, one man was physically assaulted by another, suggesting that she thinks that is a socially appropriate response to a slight grievance. Bravo!
That was not Lake Lady….. Please apologize Rick.
Oh, my! Yes, I am sorry. I am getting my ladies mixed up. My sincerest apologies.
Why is Sec able to say this and receive hardly a challenge?
Silence is the verdict, which you would realize if you were at all self-aware.
It’s because whether you care or are aware or not, that’s the way you & others, including whitepaw, sound in most your writings here.
I cannot believe you said that. I am truly floored.
What a contemptible thing to say, Taylor. Not once, not ever have I said or implied that it was OK to kill a kid because he wore a Hoodie. I have been reading you for a while now, since 2007 or so. Loyally. Every single day. I mostly agree with you and appreciate the depth and perspective that you provide. Sometimes I have disagreed with you and honestly, but I have never considered anything you have written to be despicable … until now.
Allowing that vile charge by Sec to stand and then going further to suggest you agree with it is despicable. I can think of no better word.
You got it Taylor.
And for what it is worth, RR, if you can’t even keep track of who posts what, you need to take a chill pill and stop splatting your vitriol against Treyvon Martin and his family all over Taylor’s blog like an elephant with a bad case of diarrhea. I posted what I posted not so much because I believe it, but because I was just baiting you and wanted to see you bounce off the walls with a billion posts in response to my one expressing an opinion of Zimmerman as something less than a poor victim-neighborhood watchdog hero, which he isn’t. He is the killer of a teenager.
That said, I am glad to see you apologized to Lakelady, who is much more of a lady than I am.
LL, Zimmerman was not fat and out of shape, but your reasoning abilities certainly are, but you are correct on one thing. George was outmatched by a lithe young man and feared serious bodily injury or even death, and so yes, he shot his attacker. It is called self-defense. It is legal. Good for him.
Was not LL…..
Same mistake twice. Slapping my forehead. And again. So, so sorry.
Geraldo Rivera on Bill O’Reillys show the other day was calling Treyvon a thug, and went off on the media for the outdated picture they showed of Treyvon when he was 8 years old or something. They both think the prosecution went too far with the 2nd degree murder charge and think there will be a deal made. I don’t honestly know what to think about this case, and want to know more facts before making a judgement.
FMI — I am saddened that Geraldo was referring to Trayvon as a thug… There really is no need for that.
I do not know, of course, if Zimmerman is guilty or innocent. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered and many are presenting things on both sides as facts when they are still unknowns, based upon the evidence that has thus far been revealed.
I think he said thugwear, referring to his clothes and manner of wearing them.
Well, I don’t want a deal made. I want it to be a clean decision. Either the judge grants immunity and Zimmerman walks, or we go to trial and let a jury sort it out. A deal would only sanctify Corey’s tactic of overcharging just so that she can get something.
Speaking of alternate realities, here’s one:
Zimmerman: What are you doing?
Trayvon: Visiting my father at this address.
THE END
” What a contemptible thing to say, Taylor. ” The only contemptible thing she has done is to let this travesty of a thread go on. She throws a piece of red meat into the pit and then sits back and lets the rabble rip each others throats out.