According to the report, prior to the shooting Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but in fewer than 10 percent of patients. – ABC News Exclusive
A LEAKED MEDICAL report by George Zimmerman’s family doctor that is exclusive to ABC News offers what the defense can only see as ammunition for their client to prove self defense, revealing injuries sustained before Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.
The record shows that Zimmerman also suffered bruising in the upper lip and cheek and lower back pain. The two lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long, the other about a quarter-inch long, were first revealed in photos obtained exclusively by ABC News last month.
[...] A neighbor told ABC News that the day after the shooting he saw Zimmerman as he spoke to officers outside his home. He too recalled seeing black eyes and significant swelling — as well as a bandage over his nose.
The bloodied head of George Zimmerman can be seen in this column I wrote in April.
According to the National Institute of Health, Temazepam is used to treat insomnia. Adderall is a Class II drug used in cases of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). According to Web MD, one of the possible reactions is “aggressive behavior,” something the prosecution is sure to mine.
Part of the 911 transcript, via Mother Jones, is a reminder of the mood at the moment, the yellow blocking original:
The Orlando Sentinel reported in March that George Zimmerman “called 911 dozens of times in the months that led to the fatal shooting.” He would report “suspicious persons” who also happened to be black four times, according to the Orlando Sentinel.
So, you have an unarmed teenage African American male being followed by a man who thinks Trayvon Martin is “a real suspicious guy,” who also sounds paranoid. There had reportedly been break-ins in the area as well, so perhaps it was justified. While Martin noticing Zimmerman had his own worries, there can be little doubt, due to his reaction to Zimmerman confronting him, which the injury reports verifies, as does the Trayvon Martin autopsy report.
This will turn into a seesaw as evidence is weighed, revealing the difficulty a jury will have separating their emotions.
But if George Zimmerman doesn’t pursue and instead chooses to wait for the police to do their job, the altercation and killing does not happen. It always comes back to this, though whether the jury will think so is another story and the only thing that matters.
After living through the O.J. trial, which was moved from Santa Monica to downtown L.A., changing the trajectory of the trial, because Simpson’s “peers” were definitely more Santa Monica than city, as well as the Rodney King verdict and its predictable aftermath after the trial was moved to Simi Valley, a white bastion and certainly not King’s peers, I’ve learned juries don’t always render justice.
But then again, a jury of one’s peers isn’t a constitutional guarantee. As for getting an impartial jury, which is, in a case like this one, I’m doubtful if it’s possible. When the Sanford police made the mistake of not arresting George Zimmerman in the first place, all bets were off.
“While Martin noticing Zimmerman had his own worries, there can be little doubt, due to his reaction to Zimmerman confronting him, which the injury reports verifies, as does the Trayvon Martin autopsy report.”
Did ZImmermann confront Martin or did Martin confront Zimmerman? It appears that Zimmerman was the person confronted and attacked. We should know for certain what happened at trial.
“The Orlando Sentinel reported in March that George Zimmerman “called 911 dozens of times in the months that led to the fatal shooting.” He would report “suspicious persons” who also happened to be black four times, according to the Orlando Sentinel.”
So dozens of 911 calls and the suspicious person happened to “be black” only 4 times. That does not sound like a person who thinks someone is suspicious because they happen to “be black”. THis call was not even a 911 call. It was a call to a non-emergency number. I learned this recently.
Is Zimmerman a drugged out racist who chased down and murdered a 17 year old person for no other reason than the color of his skin?
or
Is George Zimmerman a man who was attacked while on neighborhood watch and defended himself?
I agree mjsmith.
It is so irresponsible for media of all types (traditional and new), to continue to state that Zimmerman confronted Martin. This is UNKNOWN at this time. The prosecution put the statement in their affadavit, but O’Mara, while questioning one of the lead detectives at Zimmerman’s bond hearing, was able to get the detective to admit that he did not know who confronted whom. Who confronted whom and who initiated the altercation may never be known…
Especially as Zimmerman has injuried to his face and head, and Martin had injuries to his hands, indicating that, during an altercation, Zimmerman seemed to be getting the worst of it.
The whole “Martin was pursued and killed because of his race” theme is getting old on all these blogs and in the media, fueled only by Benjamin Crump and Natalie Jackson (with help from the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson early on).
And let’s talk about the media portrayals – why do they consistently show the 5 year old picture of Martin as a sweet 12 year old boy who couldn’t even shave, but still like to show the 8 year old picture of Zimmerman’s mug shot? Because it plays into the theme of an older, heavier man picking on a little boy (even though at the time of the shooting, Martin was either 6’2″ or 6’3″ and 160 pounds and Zimmerman was 5’9″ and around 170 pounds.).
The media’s coverage of this story has been reprehensible from the beginning.
“Is George Zimmerman a man who was attacked while on neighborhood watch and defended himself?”
Dispatcher= Are you following him?
Zimmerman=Yeah
Dispatcher=OK we don’t need you to do that.
End of story unless you happen to be a Rambo wannabee who is packing legal heat. Considering your history GAWD(who ain’t even there)knows how.
Two things wrong with your story:
1) Zimmerman wasn’t on neighborhood watch patrol. He was on his way to the store.
2) The implication from your quote is that Zimmerman did not stop following Martin at that point and are assuming many things about him (“Rambo wannabe”. Unfortunately, you have no idea what happened or what he was thinking.
SEC is very good at stating he knows what happened, even when there is no known evidence to support his opinions. It is one of his many talents!
I would suggest you reread your post for a prime example of a clueless post.
Woo, Sec, you got her on that one! Zing, dude, you are cooking with gasoline!
Sigh.
Zimmerman says he turned back, Sec. You left that part out. Conveniently.
You also left out that George lived in the community and had a right to be on any street or sidewalk, even if he was following someone.
Zimmerman claims he stopped following and was returning to his vehicle. Let’s remember that.
The Sanford police would say they followed the law, hardly a mistake. Read their letter.
“In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We
are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this
event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.”
Where I come from we call that lying to the police in a sworn statement. That in itself is a crime and considering the events being investigated, along with his inconsistencies in other parts of his statements to police would MORE then justify taking him in.
At that point, no, they did not have enough to arrest him, since under the SYG law, he is immune from arrest if he was in fear for his life or great bodily harm and could not retreat.
They have been investigating this incident since it happened and he was subsequently arrested.
Did you read what you just typed? The police are stating that they believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information…. my interpretation? The police think Trayvon’s father may have misunderstood what the police told him as the police were aware of the backgrounds of both individuals.
Emphasis…. the letter does not state that they believe Zimmerman misconstrued anything, rather that Martin did.
WP, do you really expect Sec to start being a careful reader? Won’t happen.
No… I guess I do not…
I don’t how to put this gently, but looking at the drugs, Zimmerman had some very serious mental health issues prior to the incident.
The overarching issue looks to be ADHD. If Zimmerman is affected by ADHD, then his actions become more understandable. And looking at the drug used to treat the ADHD, Adderall, all I can say is, “yikes!!” Taylor that is some very serious medication we have a hold on. Quite simply it is two types of speed; very gnarly, and serious uppers / amphetamines.
ADHD being what it is, it works in a counter-intuitive way. That is you treat the hyperactivity, the distracted zooming around with uppers. Speed slows down many people with ADHD. As I said, very counter-intuitive. But for some reason, the speed was working like. well speed, with Zimmerman. Enter big Pharmacological gun two.
That would be the Temazepam. Again, all I can say is, “Yikes!!” This drug is a cousin to the more well known Valium. Damn dangerous stuff; looks like Temazepam will knock you out flat, no fooling around. And like its cousin Valium, Temazepam, like all other benzodiazepines, is very habit forming. It has a very nasty hook to it.
Looking just at the drugs, I can confidently say that Zimmerman was not in his happy place; not at all. He was being pulled in two very different directions by two very heavy duty drugs.
How this speaks to criminal intent is not something I can comment on. Only a well versed pharmacologist or an expert in the ins and outs of ADHD could hazard a competent guess. Was the Adderall helping or hurting Zimmerman’s impulse control? Was the possible lack of sleep affecting Zimmerman’s thought process?
All I can say for sure is Zimmerman’s head was not a place I would want to be in. What a tangled and badly patched bunch of wires his brain must have been; especially when the flight or fight response kicked in.
That this man was waltzing around with a handgun is just too depressing a fact to contemplate. Nothing is inevitable, or fore-ordained, but Zimmerman was as close to a tragedy waiting to happen as any one human being can be. No way this man should have been in possession of a butter knife, never mind a sidearm.
Thank you, Dr SpinCity. Really? Zimmerman was/is taking Restoril for short-term insomnia. You take it as needed before you go to bed, not when you’re about to get in your truck to go shopping. Lots and lots of people have short-term insomnia for various reasons, and drugs like Restoril are very effective at helping them get back on a good cycle. Nothing about insomnia and nothing about being prescribed Restoril to treat it in any way indicate very serious mental health issues. Yes, it is a habit forming drug, which is precisely why it is prescribed short-term. Do you have evidence the drug was being prescribed repeatedly? Any evidence at all that Zimmerman was abusing the drug? Cough it up if you do.
Now how in the world do you know that the Adderall for some reason was working like speed, as you call it, with Zimmerman? Was that in the doctor’s notes? Did you get to read the doctor’s notes? How would you know that? Simply because he couldn’t sleep? Phooey! You have no way of knowing what was causing the insomnia, whether insomnia preceded ADHD diagnosis or the other way around, or any of it. You don’t even know how often he needed to take the sleeping pill. Many of us have sleeping pills at the ready but don’t take them every single night.
Really? Really? How can you confidently say that? And not in his happy place? Pure baloney. Nothing has been said about Zimmerman being treated for depression or anxiety. Nothing at all. He was being treated for ADHD, and you have zero evidence that the treatment anything but successful for him.
And for this very sloppy thinking, you and ol’ Sec get an attaboy from Taylor? Astounding. Shame on you, and shame on Taylor.
How do I know about the Aderall? I can read! I look at the two components, one which is Methamphetamine and go “holy guacamole!” Then I connect the dots with Resterol; wich is a powerful benzodiazepine.
Sigh, here I go; dumped into moderation for the links:
Aderall : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000166/
Restoril : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000808/
If you look at the preface of the original comment, the “looking at the drugs he was taking” you might understand where I’m coming from. But RR you have no intention of going there.
So let me talk PAST you, and to the other readers who have do not have a ideological hobby horse to ride.
Both of these drugs are very serious meds. They speak to a process / treatment program that has gone very deep, dark and dirty. These are not front line meds. I’ll take on the Resterol first.
Despite your attempt to trivialize the drug RR, “Nothing to see here, move along,” it is a very heavy duty drug. We are way, way past the warm milk stage of treating insomnia. Read the damn indications RR. Read the damn warnings! This is not kids stuff. This is damn near elephant tranquilizer. Yes it can help to restore normal sleep cycles, it is safe and effective for that indication. But it is also a class two drug in the same family as Valium : highly habit forming. This is a very big pharmacological gun being deployed.
So I don’t need no stinky doctors note RR, I look at the drug and I go “damn, that man had a very serious insomnia issue.” Then I look at ADHD drug. Again, “damn!” It is not just one amphetamine but two. And let’s look at all the warnings. OH MY GOD!! That is some serious ADHD med we have a hold of. And hey, let’s look at the Restoril again; could the Aderall be causing or a least contributing to the insomnia? Good chance there, as Aderall is two freaking amphetamines combined in one drug! Speed plus speed might very well equal some very restless nights.
So I ask myself “where was this man’s head at on the night in question?”
I look at the drugs and nothing but the drugs. He is being treated for ADHD, what do I know about that? Well, since I am living the dream that is ADHD, I actually have first hand experience there. I’l break it down very simply : your mind is high powered military jet engine roaring along at a furious clip. That mind is strapped to a body that is basically a tractor with a crappy transmission. Fun times ensue. Impulse control, we don’t need no impulse control. Since ADHD rides a spectrum like autism, your results may vary. But again, looking at the meds, Zimmerman was on the low functioning scale of people with ADHD. You don’t treat with two types of amphetamines when one will do.
So, where was Zimmerman’s impulse control on the night in question? Um, not looking good for the home team there, he ignored dispatch, made a snap judgment to pursue that was highly questionable. Where is the man’s head at?
He is not getting quality sleep. He is treating insomnia with a very serious drug. Lack of quality sleep screws up judgement. He ignored dispatch. Where is this man’s head at??
His snap judgment has landed him in an altercation. His body had now dumped massive amounts of adrenaline into the blood stream. How is that interacting with the ADHD med, the underlying ADHD, and the benzodiazepine? Where is this man’s head at???
His head not in a good place, it is in place where incredibly bad decisions are made. And look, he has a sidearm; this can’t be good.
I look at the case in question, then I look at the drugs in question, that equals a result : “No way this man should have been in possession of a butter knife, never mind a sidearm.”
That some 2nd Amendment, I need my guns to fend off the black helicopters the government is about to send, types don’t get the argument, that some people really should not own guns, is the least of my concerns. I look at the meds Zimmerman was taking and say “This man was allowed to pack a sidearm? Man that is really low bar for gun ownership–far too low IMHO.”
Look at the drugs, look at the incident, look at the dispatch notes released, no doctors notes required. Zimmerman’s head was not, in any way shape or form, in his happy place. He was being treated for ADHD, wich is a mental health issue because people with ADHD have brains that are wired differently–from birth. If you really want to understand this, read Thom Hartman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_theory
It is too bad that ” Diminished Capacity” is such a legal minefield. The general public sees this wrongly as an illegitimate get-out-of-jail free card. I really do believe that Zimmerman was not operating on all cylinders; that he was suffering from a condition that robbed him of his higher mental processes. But that won’t play in court of law because, as pointed out, going for Diminished Capacity is tantamount to admitting guilt. I’m going there because it does speak to criminal intent.
This case has always been murky, so any light shone on it helps. Knowing Zimmerman was on some very heavy duty drugs does shed light on what happened, and why it played out the way it did. Zimmerman was nothing like a rational actor in this drama. He made some very questionable, and from where I sit, unjustified decisions.
2nd Amendment ideologues want to not only rationalize Zimmerman’s actions, but justify them. They want Zimmerman to become a martyr in the political play they have running in their minds. Wrong play guys, wrong protagonist. Guilt or lack of same aside; Zimmerman was a hot mess who should not have been acting in any position of trust. And with a with a sidearm? You must be kidding.
But the kid….OOPS, sorry…thug was wearing a HOODIE fer crispies sakes!!! Don’t you understand!!!
Sec, have you taken your Aderall today?
Spin, you write so much to say so little.
Your very first question, How do I know about the Aderall?, is not the question I asked of you. I wanted to know how you could possibly know the Aderall didn’t have the intended effect for George Zimmerman. You responded here don’t need no stinky doctor’s note. Lalalala, don’t show me evidence. Amazing.
We can all read about the pharmacological and other effects of any drug. You have gone from reasoned arguments like you usually make to “holy guacamole” “elephant tranquilizer” hyperbole. And that’s all the rest of your response is: hyperbole.
I’m not going to address each ridiculous statement this time as I am wont to do. A critical reader can easily pick out the flaws. Just one though: Zimmerman was on some very heavy duty drugs. Drugs plural. Again, Restoril is taken at not before bed. It clears within or before 8 hours.
Again, you wrote a lot to say little … or nothing.
I forgot one:
You make it sound as if Zimmerman was careless or displayed bravado with the thing. There has been no evidence or news reports suggesting he ever brandished his gun to anyone, ever. Doing so to intimidate another is illegal. He was legally carrying his gun, was properly licensed, and he and his wife took proper courses to learn how to use and carry them properly.
Many of us who would never have imagined owning a gun now own one for the times we live in. I am one. I just learned that Sam Harris is another, which surprised me.
Hi spincitysd (how is OB these days?
)
I do not profess to understand the way such prescriptions affect individuals, so I will not be an armchair physician here.
Hopefully in the trial, it will be determined if these meds put Zimmerman in an unhappy place.
Take care!
Praise be to SpinCitySd, sech too, for finally offering some sanity to what had become a freeper library for the defense.
The prosecution stipulates many things, very little of which is represented above.
Nice so many are blaming the dead black teen, who was unarmed & minding his own business until George Zimmerman showed up like a dog gnawing on a bone.
Let’s also remember the colorful fact that when Zimmerman’s first attorneys decided to drop him as a client, Zimmerman had chosen to reach out to Sean Hannity as his media person of choice.
Oh yes… Praise be….
Forgot to add SNARK if it was not already detected.
Well, Taylor, one person’s dog gnawing on a bone is another person’s vigilant, fed-up resident. Where do you come up with this stuff?
Yes, well, what is your point? Most regular people are not media savvy. OK. And where else could he turn when everyone else had tried and convicted him based on the ridiculous narrative most media had put together? Should he have called that buffoon Nancy Grace? Lawrence? Sharpton?
The dog gnawing on a bone comment…. what can I say. Taylor has made up her mind about this issue. She has a right to do so of course.
However, if Zimmerman is found not guilty. or the case is thrown out…. well.. Taylor has already stated that she knows when justice is not served (essentially, Taylor thinks she knows what happened that night in Florida… just as SEC does… another SNARK). So …..nothing matters in terms of evidence or a trial re: this case on this board.
If the evidence proves Zimmerman is guilty of murder, I will readily accept his guilt. I still do not know what I believe re: this case. I am just disgusted by those rushing to judge and the absolutely irresponsible reporting that has taken place…
WP, disgust is the most appropriate word. I would add disappointment.
Can we not have cameras in the courtroom? If so, I’m going to Mars. Because this is going to stink to high landfill no matter the verdict.
And, being a black dude, I have zero patience for the ill-informed, ill-thought, BS that will be coming from the race hustlers, race purists, race experts, and flat out insane in analyzing the verdict.
But no matter, I will be lumped into a stupid camp by whoever after this verdict, no matter the verdict. Oh heck, I’m going to Neptune instead.
like…
One more, Taylor. Why call Martin a dead black teen? The prosecution is not pursuing race as a motive.
Sorry to rain on your parade RR, but the prosecution is not yet in front of a jury. The prosecution has to zero in on the Stand Your Ground portion of this puzzle. Loose that piece of the puzzle, and it is game over for the prosecution. Maybe they bring up race if the case makes it front of a jury. Lots of things could happen before that.
Wrong-o, Spin. That would be a different case. Go read TalkLeft for a few days and get smart.
“Let’s also remember the colorful fact that when Zimmerman’s first attorneys decided to drop him as a client, Zimmerman had chosen to reach out to Sean Hannity as his media person of choice”
What does that mean?
It means that anything presented on FOX news is unworthy of discussion on this site…
mjsmith 16 May 2012 at 4:05 pm
Sean Hannity is no Shep Smith or Bret Baier or Chris Wallace, though Wallace has a history of picking favorites.
Anyone who knows the history of Hannity’s lies and calculated defamation attempts on any number of Democrats and others should be able to figure out the rest.
But do you really think George Zimmerman is media savvy enough to care or even know? What does it matter whom he contacted to try to get his story told. Point is that he was indeed desperate to have his story told.
Alot of attorneys was upset when George Zimmermans attorneys went public. Usually attorneys are supposed to relieve themselves from the case and walk away, not go to the media and talk about it. Yes Zimmerman did reach out to Sean Hannity and so has his dad, because Fox News has sided with the Zimmermans, Just like MSNBC has sided with Trayvon Martin and his family.
Terrific post by spincitysd, as was the post in the earlier Zimmerman piece where in spincitysd aptly describe Zimmerman as a fool. This whole episode shows what is wrong with a “self-appointed” neighborhood watchdog taking medications for psychological disorders and packing heat. We can nitpick all day that he wasn’t playing this role at that specific time, but like so many other Deputy Dawg types who don’t have the chops to make it into law enforcement legitimately, Zimmerman had an over-inflated sense of his abilities to deal with this situation. The police officers I know are trained how to defend themselves in altercations so there is not a chance of the other guy grabbing of their weapons. The real police officers I know are trained to either work in teams or not pursue alone without calling for backup and waiting for the backup to arrive.
Zimmerman was clearly out of his depth in this situation.Whatever actually went down, had he not exercised extremely poor judgment, made poor decisions and taken certain actions, he most likely would not have the blood of a dead Treyvon Martin on his hands.
Here is another example of BAD reporting re: this case… I recall SEC in an earlier thread insisting that the funeral director had evidence that there was nothing about Martin’s hands to indicate that he had been in an altercation with Zimmerman…. Essentially that Martin could not have hit Zimmerman as his hands would have been bruised… Here is a report that sent many loopy, insisting that Zimmerman’s account of the events was wrong:
http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/28/funeral-director-saw-no-signs-of-fight-on-trayvons-hands/
And now… the evidence that the prosecution has presented shows via the autopsy report that there were, indeed, evidence of a struggle on Martin’s hands:
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/
Just another flagrant example of wildy inflated stories presented as facts pertaining to this case… I recall commenting to SEC that a funeral director is not the same as a medical examiner… but my comment was met with a rebuttal ………….. no surprise.
The media (new and traditional) have already tried this case and so many minds have already been made up befor a trial even occurs. It is truly sad that Trayvon Martin died… a TRAGEDY… but it is also a tragedy the way that media portrays, reports, convicts…. on many lies.
Not just wildly inflated stories but outright wrong or made-up ones.
Several writers and commentators I used to respect have utterly disgraced themselves in this matter.
I got to say RR you are all over this story, both you and whitepaw should be getting paid by the Zimmerman defense team. Both of you seem to know all that went down in this tragic shooting of a black teenager by a adult with a gun. I have know idea what really happened that night, and neither do you, but two facts do stand out. One is the fact that Zimmerman was overly concerned about a black teenager walking home from the store, and the other is, Mr. Zimmerman shot the young black teenager dead. There is one more fact, and that is Mr. Martin was a BLACK teenager and that may or may not have a bearing on this case.
I completely disagree with you…. The point of my comments have been that no one really knows what happened and that we should not be rushing to judge… Zimmerman or Martin. We should wait for the evidence to come out and the trial if there is one.
You cannot deny that there have been MANY false stories presented by the media in this case… Can you?
Angels, yes, I am all over it because I have read so much ridiculousness, and I refuse to let it stand. There has been a lot of crying wolf over this case, and we know how that turned out for the boy in the story. There are very real, very heinous, and violent crimes committed with race hate as the prime or only motivator, and every time a light gets shone where it doesn’t belong, it makes it harder to shine it on the real cases. This case is not one of those. I’m sorry, but it just isn’t. I am not the only one saying that, of course. The prosecution says the same thing.
As to your two facts that stand out:
Yes, yes he was, and rightfully so. There had been a high number of break-ins in his community. He was keeping an eye out. Good for him. Good for his community. If Trayvon hadn’t jumped George — if that is in fact what happened — he would still be alive today. He could have complained to his father. His father could have contacted the watch captain, George, to ask him if/why he was harassing his son and let him know that Trayvon was visiting for ten days or so.
Can’t argue with you there. Trayvon Martin was black, but what is the point of even mentioning it? You yourself said it may not have a bearing on the case, and the prosecution has said it has no bearing on the case they plan to present. So, again, what’s the point? Further, what was Taylor’s reason to introduce race?
Of course the prosecutions case is not about race, because if race turns out to be a issue the Feds will bring that charge, which is what they are looking into. As far as all the other stuff you bring up I will ask you again…where are you getting your info? Couldn’t be from the same press that we all are getting are info from could it? This would be the same press that you spend so much time pissing about, and how they have treated poor Mr. Zimmerman so badly.
You my friend have no more insight into this case then anyone else who posts here, and you are getting your info from the same press as the rest of us.
Angels, give me a list, and I will methodically go through it to tell you what is conjecture on my part or source it.
angels81 16 May 2012 at 4:05 pm
The FBI is interested enough to be investigating a hate crimes charge, though the burden of proof is very difficult.
The Grio wrote something simple but dead on yesterday: What if Trayvon Martin had been white?
All you have to do is listen to Zimmerman’s words to understand that race was absolutely on his mind. Does that mean the altercation and the shooting of Martin was all based on race? Absolutely not, but you cannot take race out of the equation, because it’s embedded.
What utter nonsense, Taylor. Sec likes to talk about male bovine something or another amidst his ALLCAPS and exclamation marks, but I will not go there. Nonsense will suffice.
What words are you referring to? I am really curious…. Are you still referring to the doctored NBC 911 call? Zimmerman was asked about Trayvon’s race. Apparently, if the reports are true, there had been break-ins where young black men were seen, arrested, or found guilty… not sure of the details…
Also… The grio is hardly an unbiased source.
All of these what ifs are not helping anything here…. just another’s opinion.
Don’t expect logic and reason, Whitepaw. You will be disappointed. I see there have been no responses other than yours to my response to Spincity over the crazy meds.
Saying it doesn’t make it so, Taylor.
I would say that the press has reported this story pretty much as they do any other story. They ask questions of the people who are working this case, and report what has been said at that given time. If you mean the talking heads who comment on this case, then I guess we have a different opinion as to who is the press. This is a on going story and the press will continue to report what is being said at the time. The talking heads will also continue to express their opinion about this case like they do any other news item, seeing as that’s how they make their money.
Maybe I jumped the gun by mixing you up with RR, who I do see as a person who sits in the Zimmerman camp, and like the talking heads he bitches about I see him as no different.
Angels, I don’t deny that I have drawn conclusions. I have been upfront about that. That said, I accept that I might be wrong. My main beef is that I have been branded a racist for drawing the conclusions that I have drawn. And Zimmerman, too, has unfairly been branded a racist.
RR I had a conversion with you awhile back when you where trashing young blacks about the way they dress, the music they listen to and the whole black male youth culture as being a bunch of gangsters. You even implied that Martins parents were bad parents.
I think the reason people may have branded you a racist, has more to do with those comments the the conclusions you have drawn about this case.
And I believe those things, and it is more than my belief. Lots of smart people from different walks of life understand that there is a terrible problem of violence and even a reverence for thuggery in black culture. Branding those who point it out and discuss it as racists is not helpful.
As sorry as I feel for the Martins — and I do understand the pain of losing someone to violence — I stick by what I said about them. Trayvon was on suspension for a very serious offense. They should have told his ass, “Mister, no cell phone, hand it over. You will not leave this house unless you are with one of us. These 10 days are not going to be a TV-watching, game-playing vacation for you. We are very disappointed. And son, you were sent home for having drugs. You will not be allowed to dress the part. Pull up the pants, and get the gold shit off your teeth.”
That is the conversation that would have gone down in a shit ton of households.
I rest my case. By the way, what serious offense are you talking about?
You rest your case? That’s so sad.
The serious offense of having marijuana residue in a baggie.
You can’t rest a case you haven’t made.
I tend to agree that the posession of a bag with marijuana residue was not a serious offense, but as Trayvon was suspended for 10 days, I do think there should have been some parenting going on… And perhaps there was….I do not know how Trayvon’s parents handled the situation… and as such, I cannot judge their parenting skills at all.
Drug possession by a minor is a very serious offense. In some schools, it will get you expelled. You are correct, Whitepaw. There is no way for me to know the Martins didn’t have a serious conversation with Trayvon, but the fact that he still had privileges suggests that they didn’t
And why would they allow their son to look like a gangster? Are they not aware of the attendant violence and downhill trajectory that come with that? So, yeah, I question their parenting skills.
RR,
Possession of marijuana in small amounts is at best a misdemeanor. Possession of a baggie that once contained marijuana is not crime, it’s not even an infraction. It’s enough to get you kicked out of school because of idiotic zero tolerance policies; but that is a shit storm for another time and place.
Serious offense? You are so f**king wrong that it is pointless trying to set you right.
Spin, if you can’t stipulate that drug possession by minors in school is a very serious issue, then I don’t know what else to say.
“And I believe those things, and it is more than my belief. Lots of smart people from different walks of life understand that there is a terrible problem of violence and even a reverence for thuggery in black culture. Branding those who point it out and discuss it as racists is not helpful.’
So there you have it Angels….he’s not a racist…those people are just that way…everybody knows that!! Why there’s even “Lots of smart people from different walks of life ” who “believe” that!!
They’re not racists…they’re not.
Sec, go back to bed, you ol’ coot.
That’s the very serious offense? marijuana residue found in a baggie? You’ve got to be kidding me right?
No, I am absolutely not kidding. Drug possession by a minor is very serious. And if you look at Trayvon’s Twitter stream, it is pretty apparent that he was dealing drugs. That is a very, very slippery slope. I really am amazed that you don’t see the seriousness. Perhaps that is part of the problem. Too few see the seriousness.
Kids should not have drugs. More important, kids should not have drugs at school. Those are pretty safe statements to make.
Ah the Twitter stream–again. Ya, that would fly in court of law–NOT. Any chance this young teen was attempting to front a role? Maybe exaggerate his street cred? Na, he is obvious a street thug who got what was coming to him! You cry a river on how Zimmerman was abused by “the Media” and then roll out right-wing drivel put out by Faux News; wich mind you is also “The Media.”
Slander cuts both ways RR, and you have spent far too much time slandering a young black man who’s only crime was to be walking home with an ice tea and some skittles.
That young man, that teen, is now dead at the hands of Mr. Zimmerman. Zimmerman pursued, by his own admission, and Zimmerman did finally shoot and kill Martin.
It matters not a tinker’s damn if Marin was dealing drugs by the truck load, that has no bearing at all on what happend; it is totally irrelevant. He was not dealing (if he ever really did deal) at the time of the incident. He Was Walking His Happy Ass Home–got it? The only drugs present at the time was the caffeine in the ice tea–understand?
The more you dig this hole, the more you are going to be called out on it by Angels81 and others. When you deal in B.S. racial dog whistles, you will be called out on them.
One more thing: the biggest consumers for all that ugly Thug Life black shit– White Suburban Teens looking to piss off their parents.
Really? How do you know that? George Zimmerman’s account and at least one eyewitness say different.
I agree whitepaw, and RR doesn’t have a clue what kind of parenting was going on either. What he has done is jump to a conclusion based on his warped view of young black teenage males.
Angels, do a basic review of the literature. Please. My view of young black male culture is pretty spot on. Sticking your head in the sand does them no favors.
Coming from a white redneck I would agree with you.
See, you had to go there. I have not been uncivil to you.
Another thing… do you even know what color I am? I didn’t think so, just more assumptions on your part.
No, and it doesn’t matter. Why should it matter? I enjoy our exchanges.
First off RR he wasn’t in possession of drugs, he was in possession of a baggie with residue found in the bag, which even under the law is not a offense that is chargeable. Was it wrong? Yes. Was it a serious offense? NO.
He wasn’t in a court of law. He was in a school where the adults are charged with the safety of all the kids. I could argue that an empty marijuana bag is even more serious than a full one. Where did the stuff go?
Maybe one of the teachers smoked it and Martin just picked up the bag. See were assumptions get you.
See now you’re just playing cute.
Really? The first joint I ever smoked was given to me by a teacher.
Shame on that teacher.
Shock of shockers, the teacher was white and a female.
What does that even matter? Are you now saying that she is a racist? Do you see how crying wolf gets very tired very fast? Oh, look over there! A racist! And look left! There’s another one! Racists, racists everywhere trying to pin things on our precious angels who have never done nuffin wrong!
Just making the point that white folks can make mistakes and still be good people, and would not think to tar all white females for the action of one, unlike you with your putting down all young black males who dress a certain way and listen to rap music.
Whah? That’s an odd way to make that point. You clearly implied the white lady pinned on poor Trayvon simply because she was white and he was black. I’m not letting you off so easy.
Now how about scrolling up a few to finish what your started. You’re really tossin’ ’em out there today!
By the way, I wasn’t a student at the time I got my first joint.
Also, I forgot to add that I married that white female teacher.
Awesome!
That’s the one thing we agree on, the little redhead is awesome.
Ok RR. Let me hit the pause button right there. First and foremost, Trayvon Martin’s dress is perfectly aligned with the hip-hop/rap music “gangsta”. Because of the wild growth of hip-hop music (well, corrupted hip-hop music in my opinion), the saggy pants and white-tee look is sold in SO many places. In fact, I have a couple pair of those big , saggy jeans myself. But I prefer to pull them up some and wear a long shirt. I call it casual hip-hop stylin’. Nevertheless, I refuse to roll with the “attendant violence and downhill trajectory” statement as the norm. I have a sizable amount of black male cousins who dress “Trayvon-ish” on their downtime and they are city workers, surgical techs, store managers, etc. And many are family men. And some of their sons dress like that as well and having zero issues one way or another.
The “attendant violence and downhill trajectory” comes into play when the environment creates the stage. The odds of the saggy pants black dude getting into “trouble” in inner city Detroit is MUCH higher than the same black dude in Myrtle Beach. So I’m not going to call poor parenting on the hoodie and saggy pants. Not gonna fly.
Now the who having marijuana residue in a baggy is serious no doubt. Was it his? A friends? Was he frontin’ (pretending)? I don’t know but he was suspended. But was Trayvon Martin a gang member? Nope. A troubled teen? Eh… Debatable. I’m leaning towards no simply because there’s not enough there to definitively call it. More like a stupid teen. So to me, I can’t roll with Trayvon Martin having bad/poor parents.
So we’re back to the black teen with the hoodie and saggy pants AND the Hispanic neighborhood watch guy legally packin’ heat. All in all, that’s what it is all about. All the mug shots, pictures before and after, and other stuff are just emotional props that really have no bearing on the case. I have to echo what my little brother said to me in an e-mail:
Dittio. Suffice it to say, I’m treating Zimmerman as a “regular” man and Martin as a “regular” teen. Let the chips fall where they may.
Thanks, T. Do your successful friends have gold grill?
So now we had gold teeth? So that is the qualifier for “attendant violence and downhill trajectory”. Saggy pants and hoody? Not quite there. But add gold teeth….. WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER! Naaa…….
And no, the adults, my cousins, do not have gold teeth. But a couple of their sons have worn them outside of school (removable ones). They still maintaining the “B” average. And they are seen 90% of the time without them so…..
Look I’ve seen this angle many times. And it’s about environment and attitude. When my cousin’s sons work in after school jobs, they are uniformed up and clean cut. And do their work. Outside, they go hip-hop weird. They maintain the balance, who am I to judge?
OK, well, I want to apologize about being so hung up about the clothes.
It’s all good RR. No harm no foul.
And let me ask you another one. What would your parents have said and done to you or your brother if you had been sent home for 10 days on a drug-related suspension?
Time for me to open the book on myself a bit: been there, done that. I had actual weed on me and got my literally knocked near unconscious by my father when I got an attitude about it (after suspension). Pops was an amateur boxer. What was i thinking? Oops I wasn’t being 16-ish.
Oh I could leave the house: only to get groceries for my mom at the corner store. That’s about it. Other than that, I was on lock down during my suspension. Actually, I would have scared the late Trayvon Martin. I was more of the real deal teen age punk back in the day. Just an angry dude. But my parents didn’t give up on me which eventually broke me down.
So yes, I got punished. Some freedoms, mostly none. Do we know every single parenting move made by Martin’s parents after the suspension? No we don’t. So I’m leaving that alone because, as I said, it really doesn’t matter. TM is dead. Was it by his own actions or not is the question. Zimmerman shot TM. Was it in self-defense or not is the question. I see nothing else but that night. I don’t even recognize the “medicine” that Zimmerman was on yet. Screw all the other noise.
In summary, LOL….
If clothes REALLY make the man/woman, then why so many well-dressed folks have our Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches so dysfunctional?
And I’ll meet ya a bit halfway, there’s a time and place for everything. Some people get that more than others.
You got me on that one!
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?lite
Trayvon died from a single gunshot from INTERMEDIATE range. NOT point blank, NOT the gun wedged between two people struggling for a gun amnd powder burns…INTERMEDIATE range, nice clean hole.
But hey, he had Iced T and Skittles…and was wearing a HOODIE!!!!
Intermediate range? Really? For a handgun? Or just intermediate range for a firearm? More food for thought. But ya, I see RR storming back from that bit of info in
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Bingo. You called it, Spin, You can learn more at Just One Minute, which was linked from Jeralyn’s excellent site.
If Trayvon hadn’t attacked George, he would still be alive today.
More like “If Trayvon hadn’t” been BLACK “he would still be alive today.”
Well this comes from those commie pinko bastards at MSNBC, can’t trust them one bit! Sigh, rise, lather, repeat, and once more into the breach dear friends.
>_<
Be very interesting to see a bullet track illustration on an anatomy chart.
Yes that will be quite the bee’s knees won’t it? But don’t worry, RR wil be there with an “explanation” if mere mortals think that that piece of evidence plays poorly for Zimmerman.God help us* if the evidence goes badly for Martin.
Still, intermediate range– Martin had broken off from the physical engagement, what was his next move? What caused Zimmerman to shoot? More palor games, the jury trial can not possibly happen soon enough.
* Please forgive my use of the idiomatic expression. It is heartfelt, if not appropriate to use around you. Auto correct to “God who is not there” ok?
Not just not there, not anywhere.
Two things.
Jeralyn Merritt is a defense attorney, which is obvious from her coverage and writing. Jeralyn is always worth reading, but her defense bias must be weighed.
“Just One Minute” is strongly in the defense column as well, though certainly not in Merritt’s class. The commentary there is from the right.
There are 2 sides to this case, so when citing friendly defense sources, the prosecution side should be equally considered.
You will find Jeralyn’s coverage to smart and dispassionate. Everyone who reads Taylor should also read Jeralyn. It is a study in contrasts.
My two things:
The other websites mentioned have the pedantic habit of keeping the law as written as a guide to the discussion. I much more enjoy the situation here where authors and posters adjudicate according to what they think the law ought to be. Why those other people shackle themselves to reality is beyond me.
The other two websites have come to learn that many of the press articles written to date on this matter have been shown to be flawed for reporting false information, mischaracterizing or misinterpreting facts or law, or misconstruing technical procedure or language.
The amount of corrections subsequently tucked away in later editions and the amount of terminations for this event as likely set a modern day record. It is good we don’t have any such standards like that here.
Today’s example……….what distances does “intermediate range” cover in homicide investigation terminology? Helpful hint…the same coroner’s report includes the appearance of stippling on the wound.