**updated**
It’s taken a long time, but this horrendous crime is finally making news.
“Trayvon had a bag of Skittles,’’ Fulton’s attorney, Ben Crump, told Lauer. “(Zimmerman) had a nine millimeter gun. He was almost 80 pounds more weight than Trayvon Martin. This is a situation where when you…listen to those 911 tapes and the three witnesses, everyone in America is asking, when are they going to arrest Zimmerman for killing this kid in cold blood?’’
The 911 tape is chilling (see video), the second call is is reportedly from the man alleged to have gunned down Trayvon Martin.
George Zimmerman, being described as a “neighborhood watch volunteer,” is fortunate he’s not black. If he were he’d be in jail.
Zimmerman’s father is focusing on the media in a one-page letter he sent the Orando-Sentinel.
Reading Charles Blow is the first time I’d heard about this case.
Trayvon had left the house he and his father were visiting to walk to the local 7-Eleven. On his way back, he caught the attention of George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain, who was in a sport-utility vehicle. Zimmerman called the police because the boy looked “real suspicious,” according to a 911 call released late Friday. The operator told Zimmerman that officers were being dispatched and not to pursue the boy.
Zimmerman apparently pursued him anyway, at some point getting out of his car and confronting the boy. Trayvon had a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea. Zimmerman had a 9 millimeter handgun.
The two allegedly engaged in a physical altercation. There was yelling, and then a gunshot.
What made Zimmerman leave his car with his hand gun to pursue a smaller, younger, un-armed black youth?
There aren’t any individuals who own a firearm (myself included) that aren’t told at some point that pursuing someone in the manner Zimmerman did is wrong, illegal, not to mention ripe with felonious intent. You are taught that if someone is in your own home you can defend yourself, but if they flee and are outside you cannot.
Zimmerman’s actions were clearly premeditated.
There is no answer to date of what made Trayvon Martin look “real suspicious.”
Think Progress has a run-down of all the reports on this tragedy.
The unspeakable motivation of anyone to take a firearm on to the street to confront a citizen screams of a vigilante mentality that ignores respect for human rights, something that plagues our country to its core.
This event also brings to mind the firearms brought to select Tea Party events, with media capturing pictures of people openly carrying pistols to rallies, holstered at their side.
UPDATE: The Washington Post is reporting that the Justice Department announced this evening that the Civil Rights Division, in conjunction with the F.B.I., will do a full investigation of Trayvon Martin’s murder.
I couldn’t listen to the 911 call. I find this whole killing so tragic. Mr. Zimmerman should have listen to the dispatcher plea to stay put inside. Instead the man stalks the kid and confronts him and ends the child’s life. Mr. Zimmerman says he acted in self defense…but he was the one with the deadly weapon. The poor kid probably became frighten by this strange man following him and tried to flee. I think Mr. Zimmerman should be in jail right now, and not wondering free as a bird to kill again.
Not shocked or surprised, been seeing this kind of thing happen all of my life. Need a scapegoat (susan smith) blame a black man, last hired first fired, we kill each other and get away with it and everyone else can kill us and get away with it. 13% of the US population, but 40% of those in jail or prison. You see as a black man I know that I or my son could be that statistic on any given day. Sorry that’s just the reality I long ago accepted. How often do you hear about black women/children that come up missing? I could go on and on but I won’t. It’s just so tragic that this happens much more often than it should. This is just one of the many of you are actually hearing about. And the man G. Zimmerman isn’t even a cop. This just sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, just last week a gang of black youths jumped a white man walking home alone from the grocery store. Luckily, he is going to live, but, they beat the crap out of him. Also, about a month ago, 2 black older, teenage boys followed a 13 year white boy walking home from school, threw gasoline on him and lit him on fire. also, luckily, the little 13 year is going to be ok, physically, anyway.
Both of these incidents included the blacks making racial slurs to the whites. All of this happened in close proximity to where I live.
First, you don’t justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior! Second, you need to provide links to prove those two incidents you mentioned actually happened otherwise people are going think you just made them up!
I just googled myself and found multiple reports of the teen being lit on fire in Kansas, so I sincerely doubt if cjoblak is making anything up:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station
All hate crimes are vile and repulsive.
Was Trayvon Martin involved in that incident in Kansas? Do you think that because a black person out there commits a crime that it means every other black person walking down the street is responsible and it justifies shooting them?
Who said that! I was simply stating that it does not appear that cjoblak is lying. Geesh. And that ALL hate crimes are deplorable.
Whitepaw: I doubt very much if one of the kids in your family was shot dead walking home from a convenience store your attitude would be so cavalier!
Exactly HOW am I being cavalier? It is practically impossible to have any conversation with you solo as you really do not ready what people type.
Incoherent much?
I will add one more thing… as my name here is “whitepaw” and this is a very racially charged issue, my name comes from my beloved dog Darby who passed away a few years back and was tri-colored, but had a single prominent white paw… until she got so gray at almost 19 that her paw just blended in with the rest. So please do not take the “white” in my name to mean anything more than a memory of a cherished family pet… just in case you were, solo.
As I stated, racial tensions are very heated over this. What happened to this young man is atrocious, unforgivable, and if Zimmerman is found guilty of a crime, he should be punished, severely. I stated that ALL hate crimes are vile, no matter who is the victim (all ethnicities, all genders, all sexual persuasions, etc.). I feel all should be treated equal and that it is wrong to judge others simply because they are different than you… and it is certainly wrong to commit acts of violence against anyone… especially for the reason that they are different than you.
I have not made any post in this thread in a cavalier manner as you suggest solo.
No, not incoherent at all. I think you have a real problem with hatred solo, or perhaps it is anger, and also perhaps from experiences you have had that I have not had. You seem to sense things that are just not there (at least in my posts). Unless you just enjoy tweaking people to try to get a rise out of them. Perhaps this is your way of entertaining yourself?
WTF does any of that have to do with the Martin case? What does your deceased dog have to do with the Martin case? “If” Zimmerman is found guilty of a crime? Yeah I am the one with the problem with hate because I have a problem with an armed bully shooting an innocent screaming kid dead in the street! Yeah I need to take a long look at myself!
Check it out! The full 911 tape from the Martin shooting. Zimmerman says “fucking coons” 2:21 into the recording! It this enough evidence for you? http://youtu.be/jL72w4xiTVU
Solo — Are all hate crimes bad? Or just certain hate crimes in your opinion? You are entitled to your opinion of course. I happen to think they are all bad. Frankly, I think all murders are bad, whether hate-related or not.
My dog comment was simply to explain my name as it begins with “white”… and as this is a race-related debate, I wanted to clarify where my name came from. Some who do not know me on this board might assume there was some hidden white supremecist agenda behind my name.
I have repeatedly stated that I find this murder by Zimmerman atrocious (and many other descriptive terms).
Why do you seem to despise me so much for expressing opinions on this site? It is of course your prerogative, but I am simply commenting and expressing my views from my life experiences. I live in and have grown up in a particularly liberal part of the country, although the black population here is small so I admit to not having the experiences many do.
One last thing solo — You seem to put little quotes of emphasis around my posts. Case in point, your interpretation of what I said:
“If” Zimmerman is found guilty of a crime.
When I stated “If Zimmerman is found guilty of a crime”, it was coming from my understanding that all are innocent until proven guilty.
Based upon what we have heard thus far from the media, do I think Zimmerman is guilty? Absolutely yes.
Based upon what we have heard thus far from the media, do I think this murder was a hate crime? Yes
Do I think the media should be the one to convict and sentence ANYONE? Absolutely NO
Unfortunately, bad things still happen everywhere and it doesn’t always have to be the white person is the bad guy all the time.
Nobody is saying white people are always the bad guy, but there is something wrong with this shooting. For you to come and post this “ya but” bullshit about black kids do it to is shameful on your part. You sound like most of the racists I’ve meet in my life, who will always come up with the same argument you just put down.
I would think this kind of argument would be beneath anyone who posts here.
Always resort to namecalling, Angels81, when you feel like someone can put a crack in your argument or belief system, or says something that you don’t agree with? Why are you trying to minimize the horror that happened to the white people here? It appears you are the racist here, not me.
Nobody is arguing anything here, but you.
and really, what is shameful here is you, trying to decriminalize what the black youths have done, calling them kids, for crying out loud. Any “kid” that age would know that it wrong to gang up on someone and beat the crap out of them. And lighting a kid on fire??? Jesus Christ!
Just for the record, I’m 64 years old, any youth under the age of 18 is a kid in my book. Also, if these young people were over the age of 16, they should be tried as adults in my book if they committed the crimes you spoke of.
You are scum, bottom line. You are fairly typical repugnantklan/teabagger scum. You parrot every bigot and peekerwood I have ever known including half of my biological family in Texas. YOU and your co-scum are the virus infecting the American character. PLEASE keep posting here so we can all have exhibit A for what we are fighting against.
First off I didn’t call you anything. I said that your argument reminds of the racists I have meet, and that they use the same tactic by bringing up what blacks have done to whites. You are the one who made the argument not me, I didn’t mention anybody’s race, all I said was there is something wrong with this shooting.
If this was such a terrible incident, why bring up some cases of black violence on whites? What exactly are you trying to prove?
Absolutely, it seems there is something TERRIBLY wrong with this shooting. It is AWFUL, REPREHENSIBLE. No buts about it. This is being portrayed as a hate crime in the media (from what I have read and in Taylor’s post). It may very well be a hate crime. Hopefully we will find out if it is. But even if it is not a hate crime, based on the evidence being reported, Zimmerman should be brought to trial and if found guilty, punished to the full extent of the law. At this point it may be such that Florida’s law allows for loopholes that are preventing his arrest?
Now here is my but. Why is it vilified in a bog discussion such as this, when someone does point out that there are hate crimes against whites as well, that this person is then labeled a racist. I know you did not call cjoblak a racist “per se” above, but you certainly implied it as you compared him/her to one. And as I googled the incident in Kansas that cjoblak referred to, it immediately sent solo into a tailspin and I predict you and others may perceive me to be racist as well. There is no question that racism exists in this country, hate crimes exist, and that historically, the black community has been poorly treated (an extreme understatement). I hope things are changing. But whenever someone claims racism, where it really may or does not exist, it fuels the fire and takes race relations a step back. I am not referring to Zimmerman here, I am referring to throwing out the term racist at many who likely do not deserve it.
On a side note, when we moved into our current home in Portland, OR, about 10+ years ago, within a year, there was a horrific crime kitty-corner to our house. A 14-yr old girl left her home early in the morning to walk to the bus stop…two blocks away. She was later found dead in the back yard of the neighbor across the street… yes, sexually assaulted and murdered. Her name was Melissa Bittler. The police came to our door several times and interviewed us about what we might have seen. Eventually they came with a composite drawing asking if we might have recognized the man. The composite was of a black man. Eventually they convicted the man, Ladon Andre Stephens, and tied him to the crime with DNA evidence. Melissa was a white girl, but never did I ever think that this was a racially motivated crime (obviously it was a sexually motivated crime). The parents of Melissa, in the midst of all of their hurt and anger, asked that Ladon NOT be given the death penalty. I found that to be extremely brave and am not sure I would have their strength. Eventually the parents divorced… I am sure the entire ordeal was just too much to handle… Guess my point is that it is not a given that all black/white or white/black crimes are hate crimes… Many are, many are not, but all accused should be given a fair trial before being convicted on the internet.
You are really trying to turn racism into an equal opportunity problem. Blacks are just as racist as whites so why are people so worked up about the Martin case. Is that your point?
I repeat to you solo… I think all racist/prejudiced tendencies… whether against sex, ethnicity, sexual persuasion, etc., are bad. Bad if ANYONE perceives someone different than them as being less equal, less deserving, etc.
I do not believe that anyone should be treated differently… That is all I am trying to state.
So yes, I do believe it should be an equal opportunity thing. I also believe in equal opportunity education for all, leveling the playing field so everyone has the same opportunities from a very young age. I realize we still have a long way to go towards achieving this, but we are definitely making strides.
I wonder if you would be using the word “unfortunately” if this kid was one of your relatives?
I haven’t listened to the 911 tapes, either, but from the descriptions I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems clear that Zimmerman’s actions should be investigated. It certainly looks like he’s committed a negligent homicide, at the very least. Taylor’s understanding of the rules here is the same as mine, and I don’t see how this could reasonably be ignored by local law enforcement.
The neighborhood snitch called The Law because he likely mistook the Skittles and iced tea for weed and malt liquor. The Law gave Mr. Zimmerman instructions to back-off and wait for the real cops to get there, but no, Mr. Zimmerman just couldn’t wait to get in Trayvon Martin’s face and put a stop to his blacktivities. Allegedly…
“There aren’t any individuals who own a firearm (myself included) that aren’t told at some point that pursuing someone in the manner Zimmerman did is wrong, illegal, not to mention ripe with felonious intent. You are taught that if someone is in your own home you can defend yourself, but if they flee and are outside you cannot.
Zimmerman’s actions were clearly premeditated.”
I accept you are making your case in the court of your own mind as opposed to a court of Florida law, but why go public with such readily refutable statements?
The only charge that is currently supported by disclosed evidence is that Zimmerman left the vehicle in contravention of LE direction not to do so.
How that charge converts into felonious intent is a wonderment I will have to ponder until your next installment.
Even if he is adjudicated guilty of that violation, the subsequent “confrontation” (to use a favorite choice of word above), is not an illegal act………any first year law student will represent his/her client merely approached Martin to ask what he was doing in the neighborhood…..again, not an illegal act.
Until we have evidence as to who initiated the reasonably perceived threat or action of harm to the other, nothing is going anywhere in a court of law.
“You are taught that if someone is in your own home you can defend yourself, but if they flee and are outside you cannot.”
The Florida castle doctrine is not the statute in play. Rather, it is the no retreat doctrine which does not have its nexus in being in your residence.
About the only thing I can see being made an issue of in jurisprudence is the weakness of threshold of the law as currently written. The law essentially places the burden on the actee to refute the presumption the actor “reasonably believed” his safety was at issue. That is why there is no actionable case against the police under this law. The law allows Zimmerman to essentially make the above assertion and the police cannot lawfully act in contravention of that assertion unless they have probable cause to believe Zimmerman statement was false. To date, I have seen nothing entered into blogosphere evidence that give the police anything sufficent to establish probable cause.
“Zimmerman’s actions were clearly premeditated.”
Oh c’mon. Argue your case with something more tangible than clairvoyance.
“The only charge that is currently supported by disclosed evidence is that Zimmerman left the vehicle in contravention of LE direction not to do so.”
Ridiculous. The charge should be that a private citizen cannot go after someone who tis out in a public place, confront him then kill him.
This seems pretty simple to me. IT IS WRONG! Zimmerman should be charged with murder.
Casual,
I’ll just observe that Mr. Zimmerman clearly failed to follow any kind of use of force doctrine. Handgun vs bag of skittles is a fairly disproportionate response; or I am I missing something here?
There is at the very least a prima facia case of negligent use of a deadly weapon by Mr. Zimmerman. There is also a incidence of insubordination on the part of Mr. Zimmerman. Granted the man was not a sworn peace officer, but still, he should have followed the instructions of the dispatcher. He chose to ignore those instructions for reasons not very well outlined.
I will also point out Casual that the weapon that ultimately killed Trayvon Martin did not magically aim and discharge by its own accord. There was a conscious actor, Mr. Zimmerman who aimed and discharged that weapon, with possible malice aforethought.
What we have here is a homicide, possibly justified (but personally I don’t see how) but also possibly criminal. You attempt to obfuscate that central fact is rather feeble and unbecoming of a moral human being.
cjoblak no one said or insinuated that white people are all the bad guys, that is not even the point. What the point is that a young black male was killed and this is something that happens more often than it should. Here is a man that followed this kid and somehow ended up killing him. My point was and is that other than black males killing each other, we also have black males dying at the hands of the police more often than they should and that it is easier to get away with killing a black male than any other group of males. In the current state of this society it is ACCEPTABLE to kill a black man. Whether you like hearing it or not that is reality. When you need a scapegoat for a crime it is always easy to say the assailent was black. I can’t count the times myself, son, or nephews have been stopped because they fit the description (profile) of a supposed perp of a crime. I am not going to take the time and give you a history lesson of kangaroo courts, accusations of rape, ect… that have have led to the lynchings and killing of black men you should read up on it. No one should be victimized by anyone no matter the race, gender, sexual orientation and it pisses me off when it happens to anyone period. Unfortunately black men have been the easiest target since the end of the Civil War. Why didn’t Mr. Zimmerman wait for other cops, why did he even need to draw his gun. Why did he follow this kid. Last Mr. Zimmerman already had a history resisting arrest and battery. This is just one incident that is getting national coverage many don’t. This will die down, till the next one. I have not said whether or not G. Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, because there are two sides to everything, but right now it does not look good. And for the record I never used the term white, I said its easy for anyone including other blacks of getting away with killing black males. I done.
nightrain — What an amazing and powerful post. I did not read your post yesterday. Thank you…
This is what really hit me hard:
“My point was and is that other than black males killing each other, we also have black males dying at the hands of the police more often than they should and that it is easier to get away with killing a black male than any other group of males. In the current state of this society it is ACCEPTABLE to kill a black man. Whether you like hearing it or not that is reality. When you need a scapegoat for a crime it is always easy to say the assailent was black.”
Taylor Marsh already covered the argument based on imaginary law quite well. When you have evidence that refutes Zimmerman’s assertion that he believed his safety was at risk, we can talk some more.
The Florida Criminal Code according to Alice has no legal standing.
Casual: Let’s see, Zimmerman is armed with a handgun and Trayvon Martin was “armed” with a bag of skittles?
Oh, and Zimmerman was told to stand down and let the real police handle the situation?
So, let’s see clear insubordination of orders issued in the clear and a clear violation of use of force guidelines for a start?
Well, Casual Observer, tell me how a 28 year old adult holding a 9mm hand gun, outweighing a teenager by 250 pounds to 140 pounds who gets out of his car, goes after him, then claims to be “afraid for his life” of this kid who is carrying some snacks.
Zimmerman acted like a predator. He should be charged with murder.
From the THINK PROGRESS website, link at the bottom:
1. Zimmerman called the police to report Martin’s “suspicious” behavior, which he described as “just walking around looking about.” Zimmerman was in his car when he saw Martin walking on the street. He called the police and said: “There’s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about… These a**holes always get away” [Orlando Sentinel]
2. Zimmerman pursued Martin against the explicit instructions of the police dispatcher:
Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”
Zimmerman: “Yeah”
Dispatcher: “OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
[Orlando Sentinel]
3. Prior to the release of the 911 tapes, Zimmerman’s father released a statement claiming “[a]t no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin.” [Sun Sentinel]
4. Zimmerman was carrying a a 9 millimeter handgun. Martin was carrying a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea. [ABC News]
5. Martin weighed 140 pounds. Zimmerman weighs 250 pounds. [Orlando Sentinel; WDBO]
6. Martin’s English teacher described him as “as an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness.” [Orlando Sentinel]
7. Martin had no criminal record. [New York Times]
8. Zimmerman “was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped.” [Huffington Post]
9. Zimmerman called the police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011. [Miami Herald]
10. According to neighbors, Zimmerman was “fixated on crime and focused on young, black males.” [Miami Herald]
11. Zimmerman “had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics” [Huffington Post]
12. A police officer “corrected” a key witness. “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” [ABC News]
13. Three witnesses say they heard a boy cry for help before a shot was fired. “Three witnesses contacted by The Miami Herald say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Miami Gardens teenager’s killing. All three said they heard the last howl for help from a despondent boy.” [Miami Herald]
14. The officer in charge of the crime scene also received criticism in 2010 when he initially failed to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was videotaped attacking a homeless black man. [New York Times]
15. The police did not test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol. A law enforcement expert told ABC that Zimmerman sounds intoxicated on the 911 tapes. Drug and alcohol testing
is “standard procedure in most homicide investigations.” [ABC News]
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/
Based upon the training I received in my state (N. Caroliina), Zimmerman would already be behind bars. If he was a “neighborhood watch” it stands assumed that means an assistive capacity for law enforcement. Any acts other than that are felonious if it results in the use of deadly force.
He was told NOT to pursue, but did. He got out of his vehicle (which is provocative in and of itself) and then used deadly force based upon his “fearing for his life.” Unfortunately, Florida has this “stand your ground” aspect to its laws, which underline for me the wisdom of much stricter parameters for the use of deadly force.
It was also emphasized during training (by a cop) that possessing a handgun tends to make one very polite in any confrontation. The reasoning is simple: you are carrying death on you, and taking a human life is NOTHING like Hollywood. Once taken it cannot be returned.
It was NOT his job to confront this youth. It was NOT his job to use deadly force in a circumstance that he himself created. One hears the mantra of “self defense” used as a cover for offensive behavior. And I don’t think N. Carolina is unique in that EVERY death by firearms is automatically a criminal investigation.
I’m no lawyer but 2nd degree murder is the least this man should be charged with.
Alice’s post points toward the injustice of this innocent young man being killed. Casualobserver seems to know much of the law in Florida. We will see how this plays out, and perhaps it will point to laws that need to be changed. If so, such a tragedy that it comes at the expense of a young man, black or white.
It breaks my heart that black parents have to teach their young men at some point in their early adolescence the rules of being black in our society. They have to warn them that their reaction to any situation could get them killed.
I could fill pages with stories of how a group of black students I took out into the community to work were treated.
I will never really be able to understand racism but evidence of it in our country is overwhelming.
“Now here is my but. Why is it vilified in a bog discussion such as this, when someone does point out that there are hate crimes against whites as well, that this person is then labeled a racist. I know you did not call cjoblak a racist “per se” above, but you certainly implied it as you compared him/her to one. ”
Whitepaw, I suppose because historically whenever someone out of the gate starts trying to use anecdotal evidence of isolated incidents to somehow make a false equivalency with societal wide prejudical attitudes that lead to disproportionate attacks that are primarilly an attribute of conSERvatives…AND that someone has a history of parroting conSERvative, repugnantklan/teabagger talking points it can pretty safely be assumed they are NOT trying to make some statement about there are both black and white perps of hate crimes.
And even if they WERE it in ridiculous on it’s face it;s face when you take into account both the raw numbers and the proportianate nature of the incidents.
Thanks Sec, I understand your argument, and certainly the history of how blacks have been treated by whites in this country. I am hopeful this is changing for the positive. Granted there will still be hate crimes against blacks and whites as well, this likely will never change. I still think throwing cries of racist out to posters that none of us truly know makes the whole issue fester more than it should, just my opinion.
I also stated in the post above:
“There is no question that racism exists in this country, hate crimes exist, and that historically, the black community has been poorly treated (an extreme understatement). I hope things are changing. But whenever someone claims racism, where it really may or does not exist, it fuels the fire and takes race relations a step back. I am not referring to Zimmerman here, I am referring to throwing out the term racist at many who likely do not deserve it.”
Once again in my own defense, I never called cjoblak a racist, but where I come from there’s a old saying…”If the shoe fits, wear it”. What cjoblak did was use the same tactic that racists use when someone who is white is attacked for possibly committing a crime. Everybody with half a brain knows crime has no color barrier, so to come up with the “ya but” defense is questionable at best,