Senate Symbolism, and Right-Wing Attacks Against Obama
04 February 2010 6:41 pm by Taylor Marsh
–bumped–
Obama makes a joke at his own expense today at the annual prayer breakfast, but as you can see in the video, his laugh isn’t full, but instead an afterthought, because the President knows all too well the dangers underlying the subtext of his material.
Republican Rep. Mark Kirk won the Illinois primary in a walk and is well situated in the general election for Barack Obama’s old Senate seat, going into the race as the front runner. The symbolism will become clear. Kirk’s rise possibly portending something bigger when you look closely.
Could Kirk be AIPAC’s new man in Washington? Perhaps. TPM’s Justin Elliot does an introduction piece on it today. But there is a larger narrative building that makes the right’s rhetoric against Obama even more dangerous, when you consider the larger target of foreign policy, where the Middle East has always been a lightning point.
Open Secrets reveals Rep. Kirk as the number four recipient of big bucks from the pro Israel forces, with only Obama, McCain and Hillary leading him. That’s rather remarkable given the heavy weights in the Senate, of which Kirk is now poised to be one. If you don’t remember, he was one of the leaders against Chas Freeman’s appointment, an organizing force. If you don’t recall, Mr. Freeman blasted the Israeli right lobby after he pulled his name from nomination, after having been swiftboated by them in a character assassination led by Israeli neocon hawks that evidently believe America’s historic friendship with Israel, as well as our renowned fealty to backing our friend at every turn, is not sufficiently appreciated. A charge that is absolute rubbish.
Anyway, Kirk’s rise to take Obama’s Senate seat is really a tell on what’s been roiling the political bloodstream on the Middle East since Pres. Obama’s speech in Cairo. That there has been much shuttling around regarding negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, but no policy movement whatsoever, as even Stephen Walt suggesting in January that George Mitchell should just resign.
Obama blinked — leaving Mitchell with nothing to do-because he needed to keep sixty senators on board with his health care initiative (that worked out well, didn’t it?), because he didn’t want to jeopardize the campaign coffers of the Democratic Party, and because he knew he’d be excoriated by Israel’s false friends in the U.S. media if he did the right thing. I suppose I ought to be grateful to have my thesis vindicated in such striking fashion, but there’s too much human misery involved on both sides to take any consolation in that. – Time for George Mitchell to resign
The current sag in Pres. Obama’s domestic credibility having larger ramifications than most appreciate, especially with the Congress headed towards a potential cataclysmic earthquake in 2010; traditional voices now openly speculating that not only the House may tip GOP, but the Senate as well. As I don’t do predictions, I’ll let you to speculate the odds on either, though it’s obvious Democrats are in for it as things stand right now.
Whereas Kirk is actually a traditional right-wing hawk Republican on all things Israel, never mind that this position has not made Israel any safer over the years, the far right Israeli voices in America are marshaling another type of campaign against moderation and progress targeting Pres. Obama. One that is not only insidiously offensive, but dangerous in the extreme. It is represented well today by a stunning FrontPage post by Robert Spencer, who is pushing pieces by AtlasShrugged’s Pamela Geller, the two of them joining together in a book to be published by Threshold Editions, an imprint of Simon and Schuster entitled, “The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration’s War on America,” due out in late July 2010. Fittingly, the forward is done by John Bolton (and as some regulars will remember, the coupling of Geller and Bolton became the subject of quite a fracas when I inserted myself in the John-Pamela love fest back in 2006, which resulted in several humorous exchanges with Bolton’s people.).
As of 2005, the “chief editor” of Threshold was Mary Matalin. It’s not Regnery, the behemoth right-wing publisher, which has been behind other Robert Spencer books, but having the imprimatur of Simon and Schuster, which is the publisher usually noted, gives the upcoming and undoubtedly venomous screed to come an aura of respectability. Look for specials from Human Events and WND to come.
As can be seen by perusing Spencer’s post today on FrontPage, as well as Geller’s Holocaust “investigation” connections regarding certain prominent Muslims and including Palestinians, with regular swipes at the progressive rising J Street, these attacks from Israeli hawk wingnut central are inspired by the notion that any engagement with Arabs and Palestinians, let alone Muslims, where their firing line begins, must be stopped to save Israel. A nutty notion, but that’s their oxygen. The prime recipient of their hatred directed at Pres. Obama, whom the Israeli right deems an enemy, because our President dared to have the audacity to challenge conventional U.S. Middle East policy that has gotten Israel nowhere, certainly no safer, doing the unthinkably right thing by demanding new settlements cease. The Israeli press trying mightily to ruin Obama in Israel, not completely succeeding, as my report on polling revealed, thus the entry of the American Israeli hawk right.
The sad reality being that since Obama’s Cairo speech there has been exactly zero progress in the Middle East. Rep. Kirk and his farther fringe friends like Spencer and Geller know Pres. Obama has been stopped short of real progress in Middle East talks, so they’re preemptive attack looking to 2012 has begun. Not that the Spencer-Geller contingent will move the majority, as these people work on the fringes, with Kirk potentially a new Israeli hawk headliner. That he could be in Obama’s old Senate seat offers powerful symbolism if nothing else.
Meanwhile, the Israeli right remains primarily worried about Iran, pushing confrontation, another point of contention over Obama’s policy of engagement.
However, now that Obama’s domestic strength has been weakened, with many believing Middle East progress will escape the promise once instilled in Pres. Obama’s administration, the right is emboldened. Feeling this is the time to swiftboat anyone who believes the facts and hope lie in Israel admitting their wrongs and offering a real deal with the Palestinians. If for no other reason than the alternative to progress is the unthinkable for us all. Though the continued raging over the Goldstone report doesn’t offer much hope.
While Rep. Kirk eyes the Senate, he remains above the fray and among the usual Israel Hawk crowd, his couterparts on the fringe right mounting a renewed anti Obama campaign, with Spencer and Geller doing the dirty work. It’s looking like Jerome Corsi on steroids, and we all know where that one ended, so no one should dismiss the ultimate goal and that they’re starting very early.
Taylor,
I must say I enjoy reading your blog and agree with you almost 100%. I however do not understand your infatuation with bashing Israel. True, Israel is not made of angels–no country is, but you seem to have a particular animosity against Israel.
A few things:
1) If you were Israel, wouldn’t you be worried about the Iranian government–a right wing, religious fundamentalist fascist oligarchy that regularly oppresses its citizens (see Neda), obtaining nuclear weapons?
2) Shouldn’t we be supporting a country that despite its noisy democracy, is about as feminist as it gets, supports the rights of homosexuals–yes, even those who serve in the military, is a proponent of free speech, and freedom of religion. There are many many secular liberals in Israel who consider the human rights of the Palestinians, but also consider being able to ride a bus or eat a pizza without being blown up by a suicide bomber, a human right as well.
I just am appalled at how certain individuals who call themselves “progressives” can have such disdain for Israel—and what perturbs me the most is that these individuals do not have similar disdain, or at least are not so vocal, against Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia. A true liberal who believes in human rights would not only focus their attention on Israel–and the Iranian dissidents who so badly need you promoting their liberal vision would also agree.
Good one, Taylor! Glad to see these highlights about Kirk.
Liberalastheycome: you’re mistaken about Israel being “as feminist as it gets.” Israel is a theocracy, under which women have to ask permission from their Rabbis to get divorced. “Consider being able to ride a bus” and being beaten because you refuse to move to the back of the bus, where, in the eyes of some in Israel, women belong. That happened to one visiting American woman a few years back. It’s not disdain for Israel; it’s disdain for Israeli policies. A true liberal who believes in human rights would never condone the brutal apartheid criminality of the Israeli government with regard to Palestinians.
First, welcome Liberalastheycome, and thanks for chiming on on this one. More should, because it’s a critical subject.
“Bashing Israel,” is the common complaint from those who don’t understand the clear target, which is clearly stated in every single post I do on the subject. AIPAC and the far right Israeli hawks who are doing Israel great damage. I stand by that charge, as well as “progressive” friends of mine like MJ Rosenberg and many others with whom I agree and stand beside, including J Street.
The Israeli right and the hawks in that contingent are doing their cause far more harm than good, the likes of Dershowitz a menace as he rails against Goldstone.
You also are misinformed or ignoring the reality of Israel’s stonewalling any economic inclusion of the Palestinians or Arab Israelis, which has been documented everywhere. You cannot call Israel “as feminist as it gets” when it promotes racism, excluding Arab Israeli women from its workforce.
How “feminist” is it when women are forced to sit in the back of a bus in Israel because the orthodox don’t want them next to them?
As for Iran, how is Israel’s current strategy working to make them safer? How are the Israeli hawks helping Israel to solve their security problem? Did you read the outrage of what Israel did to Turkey’s ambassador over a TV show? Turkey being Israel’s best friend on that side for 40 years.
As a former Missourian, I take great pride in what Pres. Truman did during his presidency. I support Israelis who stand against settlements, against demonizing Palestinians and keeping them from being economically secure, which is a huge threat to Israel, but also the U.S.
Iran’s regime is not strong, even if it will remain, but the Iranian people are pro west, pro America. That would change in a heart beat if we backed Israel in any way militarily against Iran. That Iran also helped us immediately after 9/11 is overlooked, as is what they could do re: the drug trade in Afghanistan, which is also plaguing their country.
It seems that your appraisal of the Israeli situation is far too simplistic, as is your assessment of Iran’s nuclear capabilities.
But there remains a huge point of hypocrisy involving nukes and the Middle East. Whereas I believe Iran getting nukes is dangerous, I also believe it’s inevitable, though weaponization is still questionable. However, when is Israel going to be held to the same standard as other nations?
Check out Fareed Zakaria with Michael Oren:
http://www.taylormarsh.com/2009/08/16/zakaria-moves-orev-to-clarify-israeli-nuke-issue/
FAREED ZAKARIA: If you don’t believe you can deter a country, why did you build 250 nuclear weapons yourself?
MICHAEL OREN: Israel’s position is that Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weaponry in the Middle East. Stand by that position.
FZ: Wait, let me be clear. Are you denying that Israel has nuclear weapons?
MO: I’m saying that Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weaponry into the Middle East.
FZ: When you say “introduce,” you mean use.
MO: I mean introduce.
FZ: “Introduce” means actually have them.
MO: To “introduce.”
FZ: All right, so… But the common sense understanding of that word is that Israel does not have nuclear weapons.
MO: The idea is that Israel will not be the first to introduce, deploy nuclear weaponry in the Middle East.
I’m on the side of honest broker status, which begins with setting the record straight on years of allowing Israel a pass where other nations do not get one.
I hope that clarifies my position sufficiently, the passion of it seen in the innumerable reporting I’ve done first hand through talking with Israeli and Palestinian leaders and others on the subject.
Tcha Taylor. I was about to weigh in on this as well but you made all of the same points I would have. I used to be quite the Israeli hawk myself but Israel’s behavior is beyond the pail lately especially considering Iran.
Hey Iceblinkjm, I’d love to hear your thoughts. I jumped in as it was addressed specifically to me.
I used to be quite the Israeli hawk myself but Israel’s behavior is beyond the pail lately especially considering Iran.
The old adage of true intelligence being the ability to hold opposing viewpoints in your mind at the same time comes to mind.
It is possible to support Israel and also believe that their current policies are actually hurting their security.
All of this helped along by US enabling, which was at its worse when Bush basically fed ex’d weapons to them during the Lebanon war, which became a PR disaster that few thought could be replicated. …until their latest actions in Gaza. … then there is the settlements issue.
Supporting Israel, wanting equilibrium, because peace is a bridge too far at this point, means a little tough love and truth.
On Iran, the Israeli right is simply headed towards self-destruction. Though I will also say we could also be headed towards a nuclear Middle East, because if Iran gets it, the Saudis will too.
The symbolism in Kirk winning Obama former seat is huge for Republicans and anti-Obama fans…To me no “Senate seat belongs to a particular party” if the voters of Illinois like Kirks’ purposed policies then so be it…I actually think Kirk makes a better candidate then Alexi Giannoulias…Who wants to vote for a guy with possible mob ties…Wait, then again Dems did pass over clean cut David Hoffman for a mobster in the primary…that right their shows Dems in Illinois deserve to lose.
As for the issue with Israel,Taylor pretty much sums up my feelings on it in her Topic.
The Israeli forces in the US are playing with fire. They want another war – this one with Iran. If it ever gets through to the American people that they are being used to further the desires of the Israeli right to commit genocide on the Palestinian People the backlash against Israel and the Jewish people in America will be horrible to see. In the past I would say “What a good old fashioned demagogue could do with that during a political race!” but since the best demagogues are from the Religious Right and they need Israel to exist so that the end of the world will come I’m left to wonder who will drag the dirty laundry out in front of the populace -
On one point I have to differ with Taylor. Sadly both the Democrats and Republicans are AIPAC’s servants. Its just a matter of extent. Frankly is Kirk any worse that Lieberman? I seriously doubt anybody could get a nomination in either party, much less get elected, that doesn’t swear an oath of obedience and fealty to AIPAC.
The karmic payback for the US on this is gonna be a bitch!
On one point I have to differ with Taylor. Sadly both the Democrats and Republicans are AIPAC’s servants.
Oh, absolutely no disagreement at all on that one, which is why I listed Obama & Hillary in the AIPAC money game.
See Chuck Schumer, who also led the cheer leading against Chas Freeman, and if Reid loses, which is still not certain, could be the next majority leader.
Great post Taylor. Well written & incisive.
What more could I say on this subject that has not already been said? Dunno.
Iiberalastheycome: You may find that those of us who love and care about Israel most are the very ones who expect the best from her and complain the loudest about her behavior.
Taylor says:
See Chuck Schumer, who also led the cheer leading against Chas Freeman, and if Reid loses, which is still not certain, could be the next majority leader.
Now this is a frightening thought! A Wall Street/Big Bank protector and AIPAC flunky all rolled into one package. The fact that he’s better at the “game” than Reid just make matters worse.
Liberalastheycome~ When I was much younger I had this romantic view of Israel that I’m sure was based on the movie Exodus.I had a dear friend who would argue with me all the time and point out Israel’s abuses of the Palistinians.In the process of our arguments he educated me on the subject. Taylor continues the education. Sadly, he is gone now but I often think of our discussions and see how what he predicted has come to pass.He said Israel would make itself less and less safe with it’s policies.
marie205~ Do you have links with convincing evidence that Ginnoulious is involved with the mob? I know there is alot of anti-Italian propaganda being put out by the other side.
Taylor and others who have posted here:
I accuse you of “bashing Israel” because I feel that you are focusing solely on what in your eyes, Israeli problems. I see absolutely know blame on the part of the Palestinians and I am trying to figure out your motivations as to why this is. I do not understand how you can not attribute AT LEAST half of the blame for the lack of peace in the ME on the Palestinian and Arab/Muslim states.
Let’s start with the Peace Process. Barak, and later Olmert offered 97% of the West Bank to the Palestinians and were met with outright rejection by Yasser Arafat and the more moderate Mahmoud Abbas. Now, it seems like the Palestinian leadership would welcome this deal–but why does so much blood have to be shed before they come to this realization? If “ending the occupation” is solely the main obstacle to peace, why was Israel’s painful evacuation from Gaza in ‘05 and Lebanon in ‘00 met not with a renewed Palestinian vigor for peace, but by deadly Kassam/Katyusha rockets fired by Hezbollah from Lebanon and Hamas from Gaza?
Who is Israel to negotiate with? Hamas rejects a two-state peaceful solution outright and controls half of what would be the Palestinian state by its rule in Gaza. Even Fatah doesn’t want to deal with the Hamas. NONETHELESS, Israel/George Mitchell/Obama are hoping to re-enter peace negotiations with a Palestinian leadership that won’t even meet with them. Ask yourself, honestly, whether the Palestinians indeed are interested in a two-state solution, as you profess that You are.
Now look at the Arab/Muslim states. They won’t even shake the hands of Israeli officials at conferences…or allow their athletes to play tennis against Israeli athletes. Obama practically begged the Saudis to show some..small..gesture towards the Israeli people, and they spit in his face. I don’t really have to get to Iran’s feelings toward Israel.
With regards to women on the bus…these are actions that are few and far between and are NOT the policies of the democratic Israeli government, but rather of some religious zealot nutcases who are despised by the majority of Israelis. The only reason that this gets play in the media is because it is so RARE/SHOCKING that such discrimination would happen in Israel. It is the sad state of the Arab/Muslim culture that actions such as beheaddings, stonings against girls who are raped, and the torching of girls schools, maiming of homosexuals, and of course suicide bombings that kill more Muslims than anyone else, are brushed aside as “part of their culture” or, “that is what they do,” or the most appaling, “we are no worse than they are.” Many of the policies I just listed are condoned by the governments of these states, especially Hamas and the Saudis.
That is what as a Liberal, I object to, the collective and willing blindness by those of my progressive friends to any egregious violations of human rights by Arab/Muslim nations—it is only Israel to blame, right?? And Israel, not being feminist because a few idiots made a woman sit on the back of the bus once? Please. Ask Dahlia Itzhik, Israel’s speaker and good friend of Nancy Pelosi if Israel is not “feminist.” And please tell me with a straight face whether you, as a woman, or a homosexual, would not rather live in Tel Aviv than Gaza City?
If you cannot understand or appreciate the difference between Israelis having nuclear weapons and Iranians having nuclear weapons, I don’t know what to tell you.
What policies are “AIPAC HAWKS” pushing that are so threatening to you? What should Israel do if they impose a settlement freeze and Palestinians continue to refuse to negotiate without preconditions? What should Israel to do if a nation like Iran constantly threatens its annihalation?
Rather than bashing Alan Dershowitz, what polices would Israeli Prime Minister Taylor Marsh implement that would lead to peace amongst Israelis and not only Palestinians, but all Arab/Muslim states, including Iran? This would be a great post, as it would force you into the shoes of Israel’s leaders and defenders such as myself.
I will tell you what scares me and leave others to make more substansive arguments.It scares me that fundamentalist nutcases in this country welcome the conflagration of Israel because it fits into their insane religious beliefs.
Lakelady, I offer the same challenge that I offered to Taylor to you as well. If you were Prime Minister of Israel, how would you go about..realistically..dealing with 1) peace with the Arab/Muslim world, via a two-state solution, and 2) the threat from the, and I’ll steal your term, “fundamentalist nutcase” Ayatollahs of Iran?
Re: Liberalastheycome where does one begin? He/she has totally bought into every talking point AIPAC has spewed out over the years. Its not really worth debating him/her –
While AIPAC owns the US Government the rest of the world knows that the Israeli Government is just a bunch of religious fanatics and mass murders bent on the genocide of the Palestinian people. Before this is all over the leaders of the Israeli Government and the IDF will make Hilter look like a rank amateur.
Liberalastheycome says:
04 February 2010 at 5:29 pm
Everything I believe is in the innumerable posts I’ve written over years and years of work, reporting and interviewing experts, talking Israelis and Palestinians, though not nearly enough. You are welcome to read them, all are categorized.
Palestinians are not blameless, something I’ve never once contended. I’m just not in the Israeli rainbow brigade.
Mind you, Speaker Pelosi just sold out women to Catholic bishops in the health care bill.
Israel is absolutely more female friendly than the Arab nations you list. Good grief, I’d hope so. But they absolutely do NOT welcome Arab Israeli women into the workforce. There is racism involved.
You seem to work in blanket statements, using talking points I don’t accept, which I’ve written about for years.
Ahmadinejad spouting drivel has nothing to do with reality, though you’ve certainly swallowed the Sean Hannity line that Israel’s in danger of “annihilation.” I simply do not.
That you are taking Alan Dershowitz’s side is embarrassing, but I expected it.
If you cannot understand or appreciate the difference between Israelis having nuclear weapons and Iranians having nuclear weapons, I don’t know what to tell you.
That you would write this in full seriousness illustrates you are part of the problem too, not willing to hold ALL sides to account, which is the only way anything will get accomplished.
That you think Netanyahu has been bargaining in good faith on negotiations, particularly on settlements makes any “liberal” notion in your argument suspect.
I’ll leave the rest to others.
Not wanting to continue this much further – I have to remind all the the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) used white phosphorous in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead.
If the World had a shred of justice in it everybody in the IDF and in the Government involved in this from the lowly soldier to the head of the Government would today be in prison for the rest of their life or hanging from the gallows.
I could weigh in on this, but Taylor did such a nice job with her essay and with her responses that I’ll wait for another day. A+ from me. Peace
alexi a mobster? oh come on. he is a strong progressive. young too. the rnc has been making fun of his last name, makign it sound like he is some italian mobster. he actually is of greek decent. i know many who know him or work on his camapign. i can assure u he is no mobster. alexi fought wells fargo when it cut off loans to a struggling suit business threating hundreds of jobs. wells fargo caved. alexi has 9 months. so does kirk.
T4H: Alexi has ties to mobsters, as has been well documented in the Chicago media and elsewhere.
Liberalastheycome, you clearly do not know what you are talking about. Your commentary is nothing but bigotry and lies. So, for those who care for the truth, here are some facts, and some links below to support them:
This “Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of the West Bank and they rejected it” lie is a routine talking point for pro-Likudniks and neocons. It’s a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Ehud Barak walked away from a near settlement at Taba in 2001 because in two weeks the Israeli election was coming up; he couldn’t sell the negotiated settlement to the voters, Ariel Sharon was subsequently elected–a right winger, which gives you some idea of Barak’s position. There was a new American administration as well.
So, the major players who had worked so hard, failed not because the Palestinians rejected the Israeli offer–in point of fact they did not reject it!–but because of Israeli and US political environments. Barack walked away; not the Palestinians. They all agreed they were a few days away from a settlement when Barack left.
Since Hamas won the elections–certified as legitimate elections–Israel and the US have subsequently refused to support Mahmoud Abbas, a moderate; the blood has been shed by Palestinians, overwhelmingly, since the first Intifada in 2000–sparked by Ariel Sharon taking 1,000 IDF soldiers to the Muslim Shrine intentionally to set off violence. Palestinian deaths outnumber Israeli deaths by 4-to-1; during Operation Cast Lead more than 1300 Palestinians were slaughtered, including hundreds of women and children. Israelis lost 13–most of them from friendly fire!
Israel’s “painful” evacuation from Gaza in ‘05 –painful only to settlers who refused to leave–was accomplished by Sharon so that he could blockade Gaza, Arabs would starve to death in their walled off Ghetto. And, in fact that is what Israel has done since then; blockaded Gaza limiting all food, medicine, hospital care. Nothing is allowed in or out. Malnutrition is rampant. Children are dying.
Hamas has accepted a two-state solution within the 67 borders on numerous occastions; you only need google it to see the links to articles. It was reported in Haaretz in 2008. Most recently, just prior to Operation Cast Lead. The Palestinians are perfectly willing to negotiate with Israel, as soon as Israel accepts a Palestinian state and stops building settlements, which Benjamin Netanyahu refuses to do, meanwhile building settlements to create “facts on the ground” as fast as he can.
Israel has peace treaties with both Jordan and Egypt two Arab/Muslim states. Many Europeans won’t even shake the hands of Israeli officials, and some Israelis won’t shake the hands of Israeli leaders, either. The Israelis have earned the enmity of most of the world by this point; they deserve it.
Israel imprisons children, thousands of them, for years, with no access to attorneys. Is this the mark of a “democratic” nation? The Israeli Defense Forces have kidnapped a total of 7,600 children, male and female, since 2000. Some were as young as 12 years old. According to IPS February 2009 reports, there were 374 Palestinian children in jail; 50 were under 16 years old. The Israeli army considers children age 16 to be adults. This is in violation of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which Israel is a signer.
These children are also subjected to torture and forced confession. Many are held in jails with adult prisoners and subjected to sexual and physical violence. They may be denied family visits, deprived of medical care, and suffer from theft of personal belongings. They are also deprived of education, recreation facilities and culture, and are tortured during attempts to coerce them to collaborate with Israel.
All women are limited in their freedom since marriage in Israel falls under the laws of the rabbis. That is Israeli law. There is no civil marriage or divorce in Israel; basically it is up to the husband to decide whether or not he will give his wife a divorce.
As to the rest of your really despicable bigotry, it is nothing but pathetic lies and utterly craven misrepresentations of the truth. No true liberal would ever espouse them.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1108/p07s02-wome.html
http://www.iacenter.org/palestine/gaza082809/
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/6235
http://wrmea.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5695
http://www.wrmea.com/html/faq.htm
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0198/9801055.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970807.html
http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=32
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970807.html
Thanks t4h. I find it interesting that those flinging accusations are frequently unwilling to post back up. And, i don’t mean right wing sites/bogs.
And i Don’t mean JUST right wing sites/blogs.
diji the mobster stuff as u say is being pushed by the rnc and redstate.
liberalastheycome- as a jew who lost family in the Holocaust and who has been to Israel and has family there Im glad to hear your support for the nation of Israel. I myself dislike Bibi and do back withdrawl from the w bank along with economic development plans and coordintation from jordan and egypt. Unlike many liberal sites taylor respects varying views including Israel. dont leave!
Noogan, let’s take care on the “bigotry & lies” directed at fellow debaters, please. If anything I said inspired it, well, that was not my intent, as I was replying charge for charge to ltc.
texan4hillary says:
04 February 2010 at 11:22 pm
I appreciate libastheycome chiming in and would like to have more representing all views re: Israel. So agreed, keep on making your case ltc.
Not once in these replies do I see a shred of blame for the impasse in Middle East Peace levied against Hamas, the PLO/PA, or any Arab/Muslim states.
Some of you, I am absolutely shocked that you continue to justify and make excuses for the outright Right-Wing bigotry coming from the Iranian government, Hamas, and Hezbollah. Where is your support for the Iranian students so bravely marching in the streets? Where is your support for Palestinian innovators such as Salam Fayad who is slowly but surely helping the Palestinian economy rebuild in the West Bank—and notice how success comes to those who do not fire kassam rockets at Israeli kindergartens, as is the fun thing for Gazan Palestinians to do.
I think, without arguing with everyone about each and every policy and peace attempt, that it all boils down to one issue:
What will it take for all nation states in the 57-member Organization of Islamic Countries to recognize that Israel has a right to exist, as does any other nation, with safe and secure borders.
For those guillible posters who believe that it is only a “retreat” to the 1967 borders (which were caused by the aggression of Arab nations trying to-yes-annihalate Israel in and until 1967 (and 1973), would that really mollify the demands of Hamas and the Iranian government? Really.
Taylor, please direct me to some of your links that criticize the Palestinian/Arab leadership for failed peace efforts. I haven’t been able to find any in your archives.
It is quite disturbing to see some of the more ascetic posters write such angry words about Israel—the first country to bring African people to its shores as citizens, not slaves, the only country that does not forbid homosexuality in the Middle East, and one whose people seek so desperately peace so they can go about their lives. Looking at what the Israelis have done in their short history for world medicine, IT Technology, and clean energy–imagine what they could have done if the small nation the size of New Jersey could live in peace with its neighbors, who would recognize Israel and seek a just solution to the plight of the Palestinians who have been used as pawns by the Arab/Muslim states.
To Liberalastheycome -
The problem is that you want to play the blame game and since most of the leadership in the Arab world is corrupt and idiotic its easy to turn Israel into the victim. No one I know thinks that Arafat was anything but a monster. As is the case of most Arab Leaders, he seldom if ever acted in the interest of his people. You want to focus on the past so no one questions the present or the future. This is the AIPAC game – do the comparison and say since Israel is not as horrible as “they” are so it is free to do as it wishes.
That just won’t fly anymore. Frankly we expect better out of Israel – they shouldn’t be bent on the genocide of the Palestenian people, they shouldn’t be stealing their land, they shouldn’t be using their power to oppress them so that they can ethnically cleanse the land and they shouldn’t be acting as war criminals. But they are! You seems to have defined Liberals as people who always agree with you and view Arabs as some sub-human species that we should enjoy seeing killed. That’s your problem not mine. I see the Palestenians as people who have human rights – its clear you don’t. I’m sure you celebrate every time the IDF kills another Palestinian school child for throwing a rock at a tank. Again that’s your problem – you can’t allow yourself to see them as human beings because if you do you would have to admit what a hateful racists monstrosity the Israeli Government is.
The US dumps 30+ billion into Israel each year to support the genocide of the Palestinian people and I and others want that to stop. We all know the IDF enjoys killing Palestinians but they shouldn’t do it with US weapons and dollars.
I’ve called Arafat simply a terrorist thug for over two decades. I also criticized Bill Clinton for falling for Arafat’s, how to say it… snake like charm.
As for Abbas, Israel has tried to undermine him at every turn.
Talking about Hamas, they will play a roll going forward. Deal with it.
http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news/eyeing-iran-egypt-corners-hamas
There is no excuse whatsoever for the economic jihad Israel is levying on Palestinians and Arab Israelis. Anyone excusing their behavior is part of the problem, regardless of his or her politics.
Well said, mwfolsom, AIPAC game, indeed.
This doesn’t help tensions, even if you think Mossad did it and was right to do it.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/crowded-cast-in-hamass-whodunnit/story-e6frg6so-1225827267128
I still don’t see one public post that you have made criticizing Yasser Arafat or the failed Palestinian leadership.
All claims to “GENOCIDE” of the Palestinians by the Israelis thoroughly discredits “mwfolsom” period. This is a dangerous charge to throw out and it is utterly disturbing. Sometimes facts can get in the way of one’s outright disgust and abhorrence of Israel.
And it is not an AIPAC game—what is it with you people and AIPAC? My goodness, you’d think they were in kahootz with President Bashir of Sudan—oh wait, do you even know that there is a legitimate genocide in Darfur, or does that not fit into your comfortable world view of Israel being the oppressors?
Where is the Palestinian Anwar Sadat, the Palestinian King Hussein? These leaders came and spoke to the Israeli people, gained concessions from the Israeli government (see the Sinai peninsula), and made peace. I guarantee you that if Khaled Maashal came to Israel–spoke to the Knesset, and recognized its right to exist (and not some BS “Hudna” 10-year cease fire) and recognized a 2-state solultion, Israel would embrace it.
I am a proud left-wing supporter of Israel, as well as the Palestinians, and will not be silenced by those who simply claim all of my arguments are “talking points.”
Israel being the oppressors…
Oh brother…
“Not an AIPAC game”… Ri-iight.
Most around here when talking about Israel are SPECIFIC about certain situations that are causing Israel bad PR and horrendous long-term troubles. Let’s refrain from silliness like you offered in the Darfur paragraph above. And I also think your “silenced” remark is ridiculous, as you’re being anything but “silenced.” So, try putting the self-righteousness in reverse.
For a little substance, MJ Rosenberg has written a good piece on “dumb sanctions.” Here’s part:
http://mediamattersaction.org/blog/201002050004
The White House did not want the Senate to act now. It is still hoping to resolve the stalemate with Iran over its nuclear development diplomatically or, failing that, it wants to join our allies — plus Russia and maybe China — in imposing multilateral sanctions.
It fears that unilateral sanctions would have the effect of derailing multilateral action.
Also, the President wants to have the discretion to apply sanctions as the national interest requires, deliberately and not with a sledgehammer. The House sanctions bill eliminates any Presidential discretion and would force him to apply sanctions in any and every situation that meets the all-encompassing Congressional criteria.
But Congress waits for no President when it comes to certain issues (often involving the Middle East), especially in election years. So we now have bills in both chambers that will impress the lobbyists they were designed to impress (and who helped craft the bills) without likely doing much of anything to constrain Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Similarly, they will not harm the people they are meant to harm while hurting innocent Iranians instead.
The Congressional sanctions bills target Iran’s imports of refined petroleum (gasoline and other refined products) which Iranians use to power their cars and heat their homes. Iran, for all its raw petroleum, has very little refining capacity so it depends on imports. Under the provisions of the Congressional bills, no refined products could legally get into Iran, leaving its economy crippled (that, at least, is the hope of its sponsors),
Congress appears indifferent to the impact this would have ordinary Iranian people.
All that I have seen on this site since my initial posting, other than yours, Taylor… are snide remarks against the big and scary AIPAC…which last time I checked isn’t made up of baby killers and genocidal maniacs, as some of your readers seem to believe. From looking at its website, which to my shock didn’t contain bludgeoned Palestinian-owned puppies on its front page—AIPAC is not even for the settlements, but view it as part of a final status agreement…if the Palestinians will ever decide to come to the negotiating table. Remember, even the “horrible” “evil” Bibi Netanyahu is ready to negotiate….good faith or not, negotiations cannot occur when one party, the Palestinians, refuse to even come to the table.
I’m still waiting for any public materials that you have posted that put one ounce of blame for failed ME Peace on the Palestinians/Arab/Muslim states. I’ve posted this request now 3 times and it is clear to me that you have never taken the time to analyze a complicated situation in the region, for if you had, you would know that the lack of ME peace is not solely on the “Settlement issue.”
Have you ever been to Israel? I have, many times, and know that the Israeli people want nothing more than to live in peace with their neighbors, on mutually agreed upon borders, with their neighbors recognizing Israel as part of the community of nations, as the UN did in 1948–and thankfully, your state’s greatest citizen, President Truman.
Liberalastheycome – I’ve done significant writing on the region, interviewed many experts and others. If my archives are not enough for you that’s your problem. Take it or not, I’m indifferent as to whether you do or not.
No one ever doubted or said otherwise about the Israeli people wanting to live in peace. It’s obvious every person wants to live in peace, including the Palestinians.
As for AIPAC, the people around here are very smart and they see the corruption of this lobby group when it comes to Congress and US policy. They’re correct in emphasizing it.
As for this statement from you…
Bibi Netanyahu is ready to negotiate….good faith or not…
Incredible.
The problem with negotiations right now come from both sides. But that you don’t think that settlements are a significant issue proves to me that your information comes from only one side. Mine does not.
That’s it from me on this. I rarely have this kind of time to debate in the comments. I’m sure others can take it from here.
Noogan, let’s take care on the “bigotry & lies” directed at fellow debaters, please. If anything I said inspired it, well, that was not my intent, as I was replying charge for charge to ltc.”
Dear Taylor: I provided links to prove every thing I said. And, every link I provided proved “liberalastheycome” is a liar and a bigot.
I won’t apologize for telling the truth, and providing proof. Whatever YOU said is your business, Taylor.
I call ‘em like I see ‘em, and bigotry is a hallmark of the ‘zionist liberals’ who claim some sort of defense of indefensible policies, which would be considered war crimes at Nuremburg, thanks very much. No honest liberal would support these lies from “likudniks” posing as “liberalastheycome.”
Disgusting people. I despise them. They don’t give a damn about ISRAEL, and they use bigotry to argue their pro-war-hawk crimes against Palestinians. It’s despicable.
Taylor: If you have ever criticized the Palestinian or Palestinian leadership, PLEASE post it. If you don’t have anything, just be honest and say so.
I know that many of your readers have adopted a post-colonialist paradigm with respect to Israel. Sorry guys, it just doesn’t fit here.
Many of the above responders throw around the terms Genocide, Holocaust, liar, bigot, zionist, without any support or reason–it’s just outright hatred of the state of Israel.
I know that pro-Israeli leftists such as myself will often criticize the Israeli government—but we do not refrain from also placing blame on a Palesetinian leadership that instead of negotiations, blow up pizza parlors, instead of compromise, shoot rockets indiscriminately at Israeli pre-schools and nursing homes.
I don’t expect everyone on here to be as “Pro-Israel” as myself, but I do expect some balance and reason, not shrieking charges of GENOCIDE. I am a J-Streeter myself, and against Israeli settlement policy, but that does not mean that I can stand by and watch Israel be thrown in the toilet by your audience without ANY ANY blame whatsoever on Palestinian/Arab recalcitrance.
In my eyes, being Pro-Israel is the epitome of being a liberal. I support that nation’s contributions to the world. May Israel and the Palestinians find peace and may Israel continue to exist in security, prosperity, and peace.
To Liberalastheycome:
If the Israeli Government isn’t intent on carrying out the genocide of the Palestinian people what are they up to?
If the Israeli Government isn’t intent on ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank what are they up to?
Your problem is that you don’t believe the Palestinians are people. Never have I seen you admit they are! Never have I seen you admit they deserve basic human rights. They are just things the IDF and the Israeli right kill for sport, entertainment and profit.
For Liberalastheycome here’s another goodie for you – your lovely honorable Israeli democracy at work!
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http://tinyurl.com/ybxcafo
By Jonathan Cook, The National – 4 Feb 2010
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles3/0450.htm
Jerusalem – Over the past four decades Israel has defrauded Palestinians working inside Israel of more than US$2 billion (Dh7.4bn) by deducting from their salaries contributions for welfare benefits to which they were never entitled, Israeli economists revealed this week.
A new report, “State Robbery”, says the “theft” continued even after the Palestinian Authority was established in 1994 and part of the money was supposed to be transferred to a special fund on behalf of the workers.
According to information supplied by Israeli officials, most of the deductions from the workers’ pay were invested in infrastructure projects in the Palestinian territories – a presumed reference to the massive state subsidies accorded to the settlements.
…..
Typically, the workers lose a fifth of their salary in deductions that are supposed to cover old age payments, unemployment allowance, disability insurance, child benefits, trade union fees, pension fund, holiday and sick pay, and health insurance. In practice, however, the workers are entitled only to disability payments in case of work accidents and are insured against loss of work if their employer goes bankrupt.
According to the report, compiled by two human rights groups, the Alternative Information Centre and Kav La’Oved, only a fraction of the total contributions – less than eight per cent – was used to award benefits to Palestinian workers. The rest was secretly transferred to the finance ministry.
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Liberalastheycome – in my last post the Israeli Government is and has been “taking” money from the poor Palestinians and using it for their own purposes including building settlement on stolen Arab land in the next one they are getting ready to close down some human rights groups in Israel because they said some nasty things about the Israeli Governments actions in Gaza (which were all true!). So much for ethics, honesty and freedom of speech in Israel.
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http://tinyurl.com/ycpbpal
By Joshua Mitnick, The Christian Science Monitor – 3 Feb 2010
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0203/Rights-groups-under-fire-for-scrutiny-of-Israel-s-conduct-of-Gaza-war
A parliamentary investigation could lead to the dismantling of some rights groups accused of undermining the legitimacy of Israel’s government by documenting alleged misconduct by Israeli forces during last year’s Gaza war.
Tel Aviv — As the United Nations prepares to decide what action to take on the Goldstone report, which alleges Israeli misconduct in last year’s Gaza war, local human rights groups and their backers are facing a rising tide of domestic criticism for fomenting international scrutiny of Israel and its military.
A center-right group, “Im Tirtzu,” issued a report last week charging that the Goldstone report relies on documentation from 16 local rights organizations that were vocal critics of Israeli conduct during the war. The report singled out a common financial thread, the multimillion-dollar New Israel Fund, which raises money among American Jews and foundations for progressive causes.
That sparked a drive in the Israeli parliament to approve an investigation to determine whether the work of those nonprofits undermines Israel’s legitimacy. The investigation could lead to the outlawing of some groups.
The sponsor of the inquiry proposal, Knesset Member Otniel Schneller from the centrist Kadima party, accused the groups of “the worst incitement possible” against Israel. “Most of the quotes in the [Goldstone] report against Israel come from Israeli organizations,” he said. “They are accusing Israel of terrorizing [Palestinian] civilians.”
The Goldstone report assigns blame to both Israel and Hamas for committing possible war crimes during the war, but accuses Israel of intentionally killing Palestinian civilians and of destroying civilian infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.
Israel says the report reflects political bias, anti-Semitism, and an effort to rob the Jewish state of the right to self-defense against attacks on its citizens. In the coming weeks and months, the United Nations Security Council will decide whether to refer the findings to the International Criminal Court.
How much can you criticize government?
The campaign against the rights groups is sparking a debate over the limits of legitimate criticism of the government.
“We believe there are valid concerns with regard to Israel’s conduct during [the war]. We believe the Israeli public has the right to know what was done in our name in Gaza,” says Haggai Elad, the director of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, a beneficiary of the New Israel Fund. “If the [parliament] is intent on holding hearings in the 21st century that are reminiscent of the anti-Communist hysteria in the United States of the 1950s, then that is a sad moment for Israeli democracy.”
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Oh I know – the Arabs lie and steal so why can’t the Israeli Government? What a piece of filth you are.
Liberalastheycome, “being pro-Israel is the epitome of being a liberal.” Do you feel that being pro-Zionist is the epitome of being a liberal? Are all Jews Zionists? Are all Zionists Jews? If it was said to you that the phrase “Zionist Progressive” was an oxymoron how would you respond? Peace
“piece of filth”— ahh, what an intellectual you are; thanks for the insult.
Resorting to namecalling, eh? That’ll bring peace to the Middle East. Only once someone takes both sides into account, and the legitimate grievances of both sides, can their be any chance for peace. Unfortunately, you are so blinded in your absolute hatred and disgust for Israel that you cannot think rationally and approach the issue as a fair-minded person, like President Obama, would. In fact, you are from the Karl Rove school of fear and insults. I am having trouble believing that you are a true liberal, the way you are throwing insults around, Palin-style. What are you going to tell me next: by supporting Israel, I am pallin’ around with Terrorists?
Imhotep, I have no clue what you are trying to get at, and I’m not sure that I want to know.
To Liberalastheycome:
You won’t even admit that the Palestinians are people -
And you claim the name “Liberalastheycome”
What a sad joke you are -
What are you talking about? If you actually viewed my posts before spewing your right-wing hatred toward Israel, you’d see that I always have written that I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian; in other words, I am pro-peace and for a 2 state solution. It is you who has consistently called me genocidal—
and I still ask you to name one way that the Palestinians have harmed the peace process over all of these years. You can say that Israel ia 99% at fault, which of course I disagree with—but please name ONE, just ONE instance where the Palestinians could have acted in a way more consistent with a nation that sincerely wants peace.