Afghanistan: Will The Real Barack Obama Please Stand Up
30 November 2009 6:12 pm by kris
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/11/30/can-obama-sell-the-afghanistan-war/
No one, absolutely no one, will convince me escalation in Afghanistan is the right thing to do in this undeclared war.
This post was submitted by kris.
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Hey Taylor -
I have read everyone of your posts on Afghanistan and to be honest with you I am not clear what you think should be done. I understand this issue of women in Afghanistan, that much is clear. If withdrawal is “ludicrous” and you don’t support a surge in troops, well it leaves me lost.
Maybe I am missing something.
Hey kris. We continue supporting Afghans in cities and regionally, giving aid, working with Afghans to get them able to put their regions, cities back together, acting as support.
The key is civilian aid and anti corruption efforts within them, even beyond Karzai.
Continued security build up on the Afghan side will take our help and is worth it, as Afghanistan is part of a strategic area of national security interest of the U.S., which was made clear last week between Obama and Singh. We are NOT leaving now. Any talk of an end date is about taking a US face off the current nightmare, which had Bush-Cheney emasculating the jirgas for warlordism.
Karzai is what we’ve got and he’s been put on notice as to corruption. Can it get any worse? I doubt it.
The whole situation sucks. As the saying goes, starting war is the easy part.
We’ll likely hear a lot more about Pakistan tomorrow, at least that’s my guess. But I was talking about Pakistan before most.
This is a step-by-step process, which has no easy answers and no easy way THROUGH. There will be no “victory”, so anyone talking about “winning” just doesn’t get it. We went into Afghanistan because of 9/11, but now we’re stuck because Bush-Cheney ignored this country for so long, as it spiraled downward. We also helped make it what it is going back to Reagan. We owe the Afghans a better way forward that just pulling up stakes AGAIN.
That said, Congress can change all this by taking matters into their own hands and actually acting like a Congress. Vote to end the war and cut off funding. Then it’s done. Who thinks that will happen? We simply do not have a Congress that acts.
It’s because, like most things of real consequence, it’s not easy. That is what was so ludicrous about the late comer criticisms of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution. Ok to disagree with the vote – but disagree with it based on honest evaluations of intent.
Thanks for that Taylor. Your comments too, kris.
Thanks for the clear answer Taylor, I really appreciate it.
Of course to get done what you outlined there is the argument that more troops are needed. And in addition I don’t know if there is the political will and indeed money to do what seems like a very long slog as you describe it.
You’re welcome djjl.
Hi djjl. The problem is that people want resolution and there isn’t one.
This will continue to be messy.
Iran could make everything even worse.
Dems let too much time slip through their fingers this year. They’re all going to eventually be ruminating about it and how they let it happen.
The problem was never about troops, kris, because we can’t do this, which is why we can’t “win” it. Only the Afghans can, with international efforts to back them up.
In the end we will leave and it will be up to them.
Everyone knows this. We’re now figuring out how to set them up until we can get out.
Well my cynicism leads me to say that we will expend more lives, time, money and a more of our collective national soul, then in the end we will leave and it will all fall like a house of cards.
“No one, absolutely no one, will convince me escalation in Afghanistan is the right thing to do in this undeclared war.”
Then there’s not much point in engaging you in any dialoge is there?
Sounds remarkably like a creationist/fundamentalist on evolution.
“No one, absolutely no one, will convince me no matter WHAT the facts and science says teaching evolution is the right thing to do in this undeclared culture war.”
Yeah, sounds just about the same and just as rational.
Hi secular.
It’s tough being a pacifist but I can handle it.
About as rational I suppose as someone here who said “KEEL THEM ALL”.
Very nice.
BTW secular, if you have been listening to the arguments and goals today on whatever news station you may listen to, they are almost a mirror image of the Bush Admins arguments for Iraq.
“I don’t know that I actually support an escalation in troops on the ground.
I would be much more in favor of targeting places where you KNOE Al Q and the Taliban are and just putting a thousand lber about every 18 inches or so. Then leave. And if the Afghanies ask for help, well then we can debate it.”
And the above adds so much to the conversation secular. You’ve given me much to contemplate.
And with that see you all later.
The invasion of Afghanistan was bullsh** to begin with and George W. Obama will compound the injury with insult tomorrow night. Why was bin Laden and al Qaeda in Afghanistan to begin with? Because Texas Democratic Representative Charlie Wilson funded them to fight for the United States against the Russian’s is why. They were sucessful, along with the Taliban and the Northern Allience, in defeating the Russian’s. When the Taliban took over, bin Laden and al Qaeda became honored guests of the regime because they helped to defeat the Russian’s. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9-11—NOT ONE THING—and were attacked by bush because they refused to throw their honored guests, al Qaeda, out of the country. Neither the Taliban nor Iran had any problem with bush killing al Qaeda or bin Laden. In fact both helped bush root out and kill al Qaeda fighters. Then bush double-crossed both the Taliban and Iran. Obama is a bullsh** artist who deserves all of the negative press that he will most assuredly receive over the next few weeks and months. It couldn’t happen to a nicer phoney. Peace
I love the way some people here know exactly what the future holds. It sometimes reminds me of football fans arguing and getting angry about the way their coach ‘called a stupid play’ or ‘had the wrong gameplan’ (see the Patriots’ 4th down call last week). Suddenly – all my football chums know more than a man with his fingers full of Superbowl rings. *L* I guess it’s fun though.
Since the complexities of world politics *dwarf* the game of football – I think I’ll wait and see what happens. Thinking I know more than those people who will actually make the decisions? Nonsense. And I find predictions of ultimate failure (such as above) beyond ridiculous.
I don’t recall the Taliban being credited for 9-11(by any reasonably credible source) – only Al Qaeda.
If Obama is a BS artist, he’s abvoiusly several rungs behind Imhotep.
Oh this is TOO funny – Sarah Palin thinks she’s quoting basketball coach John Wooden about how his grandfathers fought for their country – and The ‘quote’ she uses turns out to be from Native American activist John Wooden Legs referring to his ‘grands’ that fought against Custer at Little Big Horn.
You simply CANNOT make this up ! No one would believe it !
and Sarah, you are getting even better at cracking me up and making me laugh.
Obama is quessing about what the future holds as well. Predicting is quite simple given enough of the right information. That and making decisions based on what is right and not on what is politically expedient. Obama’s coming failure will be a direct result of his inability to do the right thing and instead doing what he thinks might get him reelected. Obama is in love with the man in the mirror. You know the little wood nymph who gazed at himself in the pool and was awed by his own beauty? No good came to that nymph and no good will come of Obama either. Bet on it. Peace
“special message” about Afghanistan coming (Keith) __
I hate the build up in Afganistan but it is all so complicated and compex and inter related.I can’t pretend to have any idea what the right approach would be,I’m way to ignorant. My instincts are always anti war but I know we have a very dangerous world today and I do trust some of the decision makers involved in this process. I am willing to remain open minded about what the President is trying to pull off. I have alot more faith in this Administration’s foreign policy than I do in their domestic policy,not blind faith but some faith.
Well said, LL – and on top of that, none of us can do much about it (see “Serenity” quotation
Keith: “You were right, Mr. President, to slow the process down …”
Keith is calling Gen. McCrystal a liar.
“kris says:
30 November 2009 at 7:14 pm
“I don’t know that I actually support an escalation in troops on the ground.
I would be much more in favor of targeting places where you KNOE Al Q and the Taliban are and just putting a thousand lber about every 18 inches or so. Then leave. And if the Afghanies ask for help, well then we can debate it.”
And the above adds so much to the conversation secular. You’ve given me much to contemplate.”
So, in you infinit wisdom and experiance with badguys trying to kill you(the actual guys responsible for 9/11) your advice is to just walk away? Maybe say please before you do? You sound remarkably like the caracature the repugs used against Obama and the Dems in the election.
These people are the REAL ones who are responsible. Them and their Taliban enablers. Kill them. Kill their supporters. Kill their friends. If you have to kill their families.
Don’t think it’s possible? Ask the Germans, Italions and Japanese.
and now he says we “cannot afford” any escalation
In regard to the point Taylor frequently makes about people not listening to Obama during the campaign and now being SHOCKED at his decisions,I saw a great interview with author activist Naomi Klein, on C-span.
She is reissuing her book No Logo in paperback.It is about corporate branding and bulling. She had some facinating things to say about the branding of Obama. I highly recommend finding it on their website and watching it.
Thanks pmichael
Well it is a pretty sure thing that McCrystal did lie about the Pat Tillman death. I think there are people who think McCrystal and Petraus are wrong headed and over ambitious. It is hard to know what to think.
It’s simple, LL –
“Military Intelligence” is an oxymoron
Ha!
OT but I’d love to share pic with you of my newest (2nd) grandson via twitter. Is that an ok (not risky) thing to do here or anywhere else?
Have you huys seen this from HuffPo:
Rep. Hinchey: Bush Administration ‘Intentionally Let bin Laden Get Away’ In Order To Justify Iraq War
djjl, I don’t deal at all with twitter – so I wouldn’t presume to advise you. Advertizing One’s MySpace has been done in here, I believe.
Forgot the link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/30/rep-hinchey-bush-adminini_n_374640.html
My daughter aid it’s ok -so here it is. If I should never do it again let me know:
http://twitpic.com/rbdfe
In traditional attire
djjl, I’m convinced someone could come up with solid evidence Dubya raped little boys during his stay in the Whitehouse –
– but Elizabeth Hasselbeck (plus Limbaugh, Beck, et al) would simply scream, “ENOUGH with blaming everything on George Bush! Can you guys just GET OVER George Bush?”
Oh now THAT is one ‘Big-Eyed’ Kid, djjl !
Remember those ‘darling’ caracatures of the ‘Big Eye’ kids?
Oh goodness, djjl – just came to me you’re a grandma. LakeLady – please say you’re young. *L* Kris? (I’m tactfully leaving Secular out). Otherwise this room may have a few cobwebs. LOL Dr. Mouse:
http://www.LBfitness.com/drmouse.jpg
turns SIXTY at Midnight tonight.
pmichael
Nana’s are a lot younger than they used to be – and I don’t me in age *LOL*
pmichael
You’ve already got your Christams Tree up – I’ll bet you beat secular at that = LOL.
djjl, that’s true. My son (whom I’ve not seen since 1975) could easily have his own grandchild, now. Don’t know, but I could easily have a ‘great’, myself.
I’m betting Mrs. Secular calls the Christmas Tree shots. *L*
pmichael
I’m sad to know you haven’t seen your son in so long.
pmichael
I saw some of secular’s work on his site he posted a week or so ago. It was absolutely spectacular – true art work. He’s in media, Pa – I’ll see if I can find it for you. Not at all “walter” like.
Yeah, djjl – that’s one of the sadder chapters of my quite eventful life _ Mikey Jr. :
http://www.lbfitness.com/wifeone.jpg
With me hittin’ 60 tomorrow, I don’t think Taylor will mind me sharin’ a little. She’s heard most of it already in the last few years. *L*
and djjl, please don’t misinterpret my Dr. House-type teasing sometimes. I *adore* secular (shhh – don’t tell him). He’s one of the most honest and colorful people on this site.
I think all of us who’ve stayed around have learned to appreciated and love secular. He is honest about his feeling and – we KNOW he’s colorful.
oh gawd. He’s gonna go into blush-city when he eventually reads this. But I remember when Sec used to sound like a trucker on shortwave steroids. He’s mellowed considerably. LOL
OMG – I guess I haven’t been around long enough to recognize the “mellowing.” I remember getting smacked because
I didn’t criticize secular (for whatever) and I said that I rarely understood him. Which was true at the time. At the time I wasn’t willing to spend that much time rereading to understand.
btw, pmichael – I don’t think Huckabee and I would look at the “forgiveness” issues of criminals in the same way. In some ways I’d be easier and in many he’d be tougher – one simple example would be capital punishment.
I have no doubt that Huckabee’s intent is to be a man faithful to the Gospel (as he understands it). But I also so see him as a man (again man in terms of species not gender) with faults. As my Governor, I have seen him to be petty, thin skinned, self-absorbed, above the “regular folks,” etc. There is a reason his family was not in the spot light – they are a reflection of him but less polished.
While I have friends that I love who consider him at least a casual friend, he and his family are people I would be friendly to but not people I would wantto invite into my home as friends.
Good points but I gotta run – favorite show comin’ on (House)
Leavin’ you (I’ll come back later) with the reason I no longer have a stomach. *L* Third wife. FOUR daughters ___
http://www.lbfitness.com/wifethree.jpg
Hi secular -
And killing them, whoever they are, proves what?
Sorry I, actually I am not sorry, that I view the world differently. As much of a cliche as it is, cliches have a tendency to come from truth…..an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
To lead by example is hard, to play on someone else’s level is easy. I prefer the diffulct way, it’s what may faith teaches me. To kill someone in retribution proves nothing. To love those that mean us harm is something else again.
Sorry for my spelling, difficult and it’s what my faith. Sorry again.
BTW – I am more than willing to listen to President Obama. Trust me I will be listening to him closely tomorrow night.
I voted for him, and I am sorry I did. Just to make it clear, that does not mean I would have voted for McCain. I would have voted third party, but in the past I have fallen for the argument that to vote for another party is a wasted vote, and I took it to heart again in 2008. For me that argument is a thing of the past, it won’t happen again.
For months I have been trying to make the point that being Republican does not = bad and being Democrat does not = good. There has to be a level playing field. It may be these days that being either = bad. I’m not sure, but believe me I am thinking hard about it these days.
My hope is that the voting public will break away and say enough. From the crap health care bill in the Senate, no jobs, propping up Wall Street, not giving a shit about the working people in the country, and now a continuation of a war that even Taylor has said is a no win —– my question is when will we learn?
kris
I think I’ve been in the same “misspelling” groove the last 2 days.
I think I’m going to “hit the hay.” I can’t remember who said that a few days ago – I hadn’t heard that phrase since I lived with my grandfather a long time ago. I loved reading that – it reminded me of so many wonderful things I learned from my grandfather and my aunt. I hope I have passed those things on to my children. They will be richer for it if I have.
djjl – We may talk ’til the cows come home’ – hee hee
I never knew where it came from, but my aunt used to say “oh critters” in mild exasperation.
This is really weird. Watchin a *killer* Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Concert on HBO – and Stevie Wonder seemed to sort of ‘lose it’.
– like he mentally lost it for a minute.
BB King with him now – “The Thrill is Gone”.
Outstanding stuff if ya gets HBO.
pmichael
Is that 25th Anniversary R R Hall of Fame?
Have you ever heard BB king’s Dueces Wild? I love it!
Good night all
kris says:
30 November 2009 at 11:35 pm
Hi secular -
“And killing them, whoever they are, proves what?”
Dead people do not fly airplanes into buildings full of people. Dead people do not plant roadside bombs. Dead people don’t do much of anything but rot.
Hello secular,
I’m going to find your site again and take another peek. I was just blown away by your work. Thank for ALL you do.
aboutartglass.com
THANKS! Money’s nice but the applause, the applause!