I Have Seen Your Hand-Wringing Before, Kossacks
18 August 2009 5:19 pm by Audiegrl
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/18/768125/-I-Have-Seen-Your-Hand-Wringing-Before,-Kossacks
Great diary by LarsThorwald on Daily Kos.
Those people are worse than enemies, because your enemies invigorate you. Your enemies are mirrors showing you exactly where you stand by comparison. I would rather face 1000 Chuck Grassleys and lunatics with guns at rallies and signs that have incredibly misinformed slogans, because when they stand apart from me, it shows me I am not them.
But an “ally” who claims to be a progressive or whatever and starts braying about one-term presidencies and whatever other similar nonsense is worse than a political enemy because that person undermines the morale.
I’d rather be told by an opponent, “There is no way you are ever going to win,” because that gets me fired up. But if a “friend” puts his arm around me and says that, it kills my morale.
Well, excuse me, f*ck that. The last thing we need is some morale-sucking “ally”. Take it to RedState.
This post was submitted by Audiegrl.
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Wow AG, he’s absolutely right. I think the naysayers are worried about nothing. Bill Burton was on today again talking about the fact that Obama has not changed his mind on Public Option. I think people read into things he says. I never took what he said in Grand Junction as getting ready to drop PO.
And by the way, I see A LOT of arm chair quarterbacking in here too. I am just as guilty of that as everyone else. But I really think it does no one any good at all.
I haven’t changed my opinion to wait and see what he does. I’ve been doing my part by emailing and phoning my congressional delegation.
I see that TDK is the same echo-chamber that it has always been. Blech!
Good grief JoeCHI you can’t stand another opinion? I guess this is just an echo chamber for Hillary. Ya think?
I think what the man said was very logical and made a lot of sense.
HUH? Betsy, seriously, you may not like what JoeCHI wrote, but what the hell did he say that has ANYTHING to do with Hillary? Just because JC doesn’t like TDK doesn’t mean Hillary’s name should be used in political vain.
…and I say this just to keep some sanity. Raise hell about anything Hillary Clinton if you want, but can we do it in a thread that actually has something to do with her?
Good. Grief.
Well perhaps the presant state of affairs and shakey morale is to be laid at the foot of the White House and the Dems in Congress for doing such a piss poor job of informing not only the PUBLIC but US? Ya think?
Thanks Betsy, Lars said it better than I could.
Taylor, I said that because I felt JC commented just because Daily Kos during the primary was an Obama site just like yours was a Hillary site. Sorry if I offended you but it just seemed to me that he wasn’t going to give any credit to a person just because he was an Obama supporter.
sec, you may be absolutely correct. But I think what Lars was saying, or at least I perceived it to mean that we may just be jumping the gun about what Obama is going to do.
secularhumanizinevoluter says:
18 August 2009 at 5:51 pm
The problem with that is that you are dealing with happily uninformed people. Bill Mahr covered this a couple of weeks ago.
snip
I’m the bad guy for saying it’s a stupid country, yet polls show that a majority of Americans cannot name a single branch of government, or explain what the Bill of Rights is. 24% could not name the country America fought in the Revolutionary War. More than two-thirds of Americans don’t know what’s in Roe v. Wade. Two-thirds don’t know what the Food and Drug Administration does. Some of this stuff you should be able to pick up simply by being alive. You know, like the way the Slumdog kid knew about cricket.
The only way that Dems could teach these people about health care reform would be to draw it in a picture book.
Betsy says:
18 August 2009 at 5:55 pm
Jesus, Betsy. Get over the primaries. All of you.
It’s not offending me at all. It’s just juvenile.
Maybe he doesn’t like DK & the diarist AG cited, who did exactly what you did, for his own reasons, I have no idea.
Who cares? He’s allowed not to like who he wants without you dredging up ancient history. Sheesh.
Betsy says:
18 August 2009 at 5:57 pm
If Obama and his administration aren’t pushed, Rahm Emanuel and his Blue Dogs will gut any public option or co-op (disguised as a public option).
This is politics 101.
Leave a politician alone and he/she will cave and do the easy thing.
The days of Truman are gone.
But thanks to AG for posting something really good for discussion! It’s appreciated.
Poooor Baaarack leeeaaavvveee himm alonnnne…. Spare me. It always seems as if there is some excuse or some defense for whatever it is Barack Obama is doing or not doing. The pitfall of electing a personality who is sorely lacking both substance and dare I say experience. I know he had a lot handed to him but if he’s not up to the task or won’t do what he was elected to do than he should replaced. Elmer Gantry with a website indeed.
Iceblinkjm says:
18 August 2009 at 6:13 pm
Please give us the link to your “Poooor Baaarack leeeaaavvveee himm alonnnne” video on youtube, I for one would love to see it.
Jesus Taylor, I first off was being sarcastic to JC. And I’m over the damn primary. Got it all, I’m over it!!! Sheesh!!
Audiegrl says:
18 August 2009 at 6:17 pm
OH! Do I wish I had my archive podcasts for you to listen to, AG.
Good for Chris Bowers. Hilarious:
http://www.openleft.com/diary/14681/i-am-vaguely-calling-you-out
Indeed.
Where do I begin with this post?
I don’t think anyone on the progressive side is “hurting” the President. Many of these are self-inflicted wounds. Letting Sarah Palin help change the narrative and a provision in the bill itself, laughable and sad at the same time. Ditching the email system, when criticism came from the right. Disappointing.
It’s clear to me single-payer will not happen. That a public option is the co-op, of sorts. But listening to the administration go back and forth, clarify this, clear up that, I have no clue what the message is. And listening to Sellibus (I can never spell her name) is as exciting as talking to a pet rock. (Get her off the TV)
So if people are worried, you know what, they should be. A grueling primary and hard fought election, all the Democrats held a large edge to the issue of healthcare reform, and now I believe it has mostly been squandered.
I always say “Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail”
Taylor Marsh says:
18 August 2009 at 6:31 pm
That is too rich.
Good to see you, daubry.
Just posted something, linking to what Chris said.
Taylor, I’ve been super busy covering city council races in the city! But it’s always good to come back here
Good for you, keep it up!
That’s pretty funny, I have to admit. But I don’t think there was anything vague about what Lars said. So in the interest of fairness, let’s post the update from Lars:
I love Chris Bowers at Open Left to death, but if he thinks this diary is vaguely calling out people, he’s not reading either this site or my diary carefully enough. I am calling out those commenters on this site who post comments seriously suggesting that its time to consider mounting a primary challenge to Obama, those who start shouting — almost with glee — that this is rapidly becoming a one-term presidency, those who complain about how this Administration has failed on health care reform when the game is not quite over. And their ilk. Is that the majority of folks here? Of course not. Is it a growing and noticeable chorus? You are goddamned right it is. And judging by the comments below, a lot of people agree.
I see the same things here. And I’d point out names, except I can’t remember who said what. It’s all jumbled together. But I have heard “That’s it — I’m done with Obama!” from the same people several times now. I heard it after Rick Warren, I heard it after the first DOMA brief, and I’ve heard it during this health care debate. Which kinda leads to the question: when, exactly, are you really going to leave? The fifth time you get upset? The seventeenth? The umpteenth? I mean, let a playa know. That way, I don’t have to keep going through changes, and I can wish you farewell.
Or maybe we can admit the dirty truth: You ain’t going NOWHERE. You just want the flowers, the candy, and the “please baby, baby, please.” LOL.
By the way, if you notice the new DOMA brief, it’s not nearly as bad as the one from a few months ago. Still makes the argument to uphold, but argues that it’s wrong and Congress should change. So you’re right to keep pushing.
Taylor Marsh says:
18 August 2009 at 6:31 pm
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F*cken hysterical!
Well, I think Lars is not facing political reality and distracts from the issue of true health care reform by labeling people who voted for Obama because of his stance on health care and the public option as “worse than enemies”, when the voters actually expect him to deliver and question his messaging strategy. That is simply not the case. When you have the head of the AFL-CIO saying to the president, no public option – don’t expect us to help in 2010 and 2012, that is serious. Lars doesn’t get that. This is really a matter of Obama stepping up to the plate to do what he campaigned for, in the face of powerful lobbies buying off his party’s senators. Thus, the pressure to do the right thing – that is not being an “enemy”. And this is not about Obama – it is about the people that elected him to office and the Dems to Congress.
Well said lynnette!
I never read Kos. I think of it as the Politiboro of the left.
Fair enough, Lynnette. But I think Lars absolutely gets it. I think he is saying there is a productive way to push, and there is a negative way. Primary him! And Lame Duck! are just juvenile. And make an already poisonous atmosphere worse.
But let me ask you (and kris) a question. I try posing it before, but comments were closed downthread. Let’s say the final bill contains a public option. But the bill expressly precludes any government assistance: no subsidies, no borrowing from the gov’t at advantageous rates, no leveraging the government power to reduce cost of drugs, no nothing. It has to compete on equal footing with private insurers as if it were one of them, except of course it’s run on a not for profit basis. And to ensure no later mischief, any change in the setup of the public option has to be approved by a majority vote of a blue ribbon panel divided equally between Democrats and Republicans.
Actually, I’ll open this up to anyone interested in answering. Would any of you support that kind of a public option? It seems to be that it would address the claim that public option provides competition for insurers, and the concern that public option is a trojan horse for single-payer.
And wouldn’t you know it. What I envisage has already been proposed by others:
http://www.newamerica.net/files/CompetingPublicHealthPlan.pdf
Skimmed it quickly, but it seems to be something the left, center-left, and just plain center can coalesce around. So would you accept this? I have to be honest, I would.
I sure wish we were fighting over single payer instead. Ogenec I fear what you are describing could easily happen.
Eric Weiner from New York was on ‘Morning Joe’ and and ‘Hardball’ today. His argument was cogent and sensible and easily understood.There was even a delicious moment on’Morning Joe’ when he asked Joe and his panel to name on thing of value that private insurance brought to the healthcare of the American people. No one said a word for what seeemd like a minute and they cut to a commericial break.
lynnette says:
18 August 2009 at 8:36 pm
___________________________
And don’t get me started on Obama’s deal with Pharma. When it came time to man-up and fulfill his campaign promise to negotiate lower drug prices, Obama was MIA.
Obama needs to grow a set. So does Lars, for that matter.
good lord ,forgive my typos.
Lake Lady says:
18 August 2009 at 9:05 pm
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I saw him on Hardball. I’ll check out the Morning Joe clips on msnbc.com. I have to say, he’s about the only one in the public eye that is being completely honest. He wants single-payer and he’s not afraid to say it.
But the thing is, single-payer is DOA right now. And progressives are saying public option, or count us out. If you take them at their word — I don’t — what doesn’t what I (actually, the New America Foundation) proposed work?
What does not work for me is allowing Pharma to continue to loot this country.I get what you are saying about loans and subsidies, the fear of another Fanny and Freddy situation.I also think we will take what we get but that does not mean we have to like it and I do think wherever it is possible some Dems should be primaried.
I also understand what you are saying about political realities and single payer but that really is the only thing that makes any sense to me. All the alternatives seem like a messy hodgepodge that will not end up lowering the costs and covering everyone.
Hey Ogenec — AG — and anyone else
Once again – I haven’t read the entire string.. but wanted to comment about the “one-term presidency” thing.
I posted — I think yesterday — that I remember reading or hearing somewhere that Obama said that he is willing to be a one-term president in order to achieve healthcare reform. I haven’t had the time to even look for where I read or heard this… not even sure if it is true. But frankly, if it is true — then I respect him 100% because that’s what a president — who wants to do the right thing for his country — should be about. So — he should just do the right thing… re HCR. We need BOLD ACTION.. not baby steps…
Also — I read an earlier post from Kris I think.. about the argument that incremental changes are not enough… because time may not be on our side. We have the majority and we need BOLD reform… the right thing to do… is to do IT.. and forget about being re-elected. Do the right thing… otherwise there may not be another chance for 20 years… DADT was a start…. it opened the door a “bit”… but almost 20 years later.. “nothin’s changed”…
ogenec says:
18 August 2009 at 8:58 pm
I skimmed through it but it seems like a co-op kind of arrangement to me, which Howard Dean says won’t work because you have to get at least a threshold of 500,000 people to have leverage in cost containment. Also, I have read that Senator Kent Conrad is so enthusiastic about the co-ops because Blue Cross Blue Shield in his state is pushing to run them in addition to the 90% of the private market they already control in his state. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/health/policy/18plan.html?_r=1&exprod=myyahoo
I would have to give the proposal you cite a more thorough reading. I like the Medicare – like public option. People know what Medicare is and lends itself to simple messaging, like Rep. Weiner said. I am not so sure it would drive the private insurance companies out, either. And regardless, the Repubs are not even buying into the co-op idea.
Has anyone posted that it is time (with glee) to mount a challenge to Obama’s presidency? Maybe I missed it.
Any comment that I made or have interpreted .. is that Obama has screwed this up … and as a result… it may come back to bite him. Are there posters who would have rather someone else have been elected..certainly…(yes … I’m one of them).. but that doesn’t mean anything would have been handled differently… and who knows, it might even be worse.. Frankly I was disappointed in how Hillary handled a few situation on her recent trip… I respect her immensely — but she seemed tired and caved a bit.. That’s not what we need in a president… not now.
sorry to come into this late… still haven’t read the entire string so my comments may appear to be non-sequetors (ogenec – did I spell that correctly?? Sorry — just tired of looking up words…. mostly from your posts!
)
Sheesh!
— Every time I post .. the discussion stops… I know — it’s 10:30 for many of you (maybe a bit earlier for others)..so I won’t take it personally… Oh well.. We’re going for a walk with Cashmere (Our dog)… another 90 + degree day here in PDX. Take care you all — This is still the best site…
whitepaw says:
18 August 2009 at 10:22 pm
For me, this is only about the change America voted for and squeezing out the most you can possibly get from the political process to do what you campaigned for. Period. I personally am so over the primary thing and really like Obama personally. But I didn’t vote for student council president. I voted for the change that our country desperately needs and my priority is not in placating Republicans in Congress – they lost – we won – it’s time to act. IMO.
whitepaw says:
18 August 2009 at 10:32 pm
It must be you, Whitepaw. LOL.
Maybe it’s me.
lynnette says:
18 August 2009 at 10:38 pm
For me, this is only about the change America voted for and squeezing out the most you can possibly get from the political process to do what you campaigned for. Period. I voted for the change that our country desperately needs and my priority is not in placating Republicans in Congress – they lost – we won – it’s time to act.
Hi Lynnette — I posted excerpts from your post above — I absolutely agree.
And…yes… it must be you..
Now I’m off to bed…
—
No, it’s not you.
I just had to go to bed early because I have a business trip this morning. I’ll take it up again when I get back, assuming the place hasn’t melted down in the meantime!
What the New America Foundation — a center-left organization, BTW — is proposing is not a co-op. It is a real public plan, that would sit alongside private insurance. But it would be prevented from doing the things that concern people like me. I think it’s a very sensible proposal, and I think it has the real opportunity to remove this issue as a roadblock. Progressives get the public option, but there is no threat of using it as a stalking horse for single-payer.
I think that’s a very Solomonic solution.
Lars and his ilk need to toughen up.
JoeCHI says:
18 August 2009 at 8:09 pm
heh-heh… AND what Lynnette said. Heya whitepaw, so glad to read your comments, too, whenever you stop by.
Isn’t that the truth, djjl!
Aaaah, if you truly applied the “Solomonic solution”(GREAT name for a band!!!) dosen’t the baby get like…cut in two?
I mean because the “Solomonic solution” is contingent on ONE of the parties being sane and all. And ONE of the parties having to be willing to give EVERYTHING up right?
So the “Solononic solution” is for the Dems to be willing to just throw up their hands and tell the repugs YOU WIN, WE GIVE UP?
Solomonic
And anyway, isn’t that a story in that work of fiction the rightwingnuts are always waving around to justify all THEIR lunacy?
No sec, the baby does not get cut in two. The “threat” of doing so means the baby gets returned to the real mother, and justice prevails. Same thing here. And even if the Bible is a work of fiction, it’s a great work of fiction.
(Sorry for delayed response. Was out of pocket all day yesterday.)